Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

devuan.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 221 posts

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#101

Post by egorfine »

t43562 wrote: post #89
egorfine wrote: post #19

As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.

The great thing is that there actually ARE options that are far better than init scripts and they don't have to be like systemd.

This is technically true. Problem is, they are way out of mainstream and thus are not really practical outside of niche applications like containers.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#102

Post by egorfine »

IshKebab wrote: post #44
egorfine wrote: post #19

As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.

I remember the time before systemd and there wasn't any innovation happening - everyone was content with hacky bash scripts.

They didn't need to be hacky though. Clever wtfing in bash is a bad practice and has nothing to do with init systems.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#104

Post by JCattheATM »

dashzebra wrote: post #25

Honest question here: why do people hate systemd so much?

I don't hate it but I certainly wish to avoid it for as long as possible.

I see no advantages over alternative modern init systems and a ton of disadvantages. I think it's bloated, even if you can disable much of it, I don't care for the binary log format, and I don't want to support something that is encouraging so much dependency and unnecessary inter-connectedness.

Not to mention it doesn't have the best security history.

In another sense, it seems like Windows at some of its worse. The very same people who used to bitch about the registry now advocate for systemd, which I think is kind of weird.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#105

Post by egorfine »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #75
egorfine wrote: post #19

As a passionate systemd hater I still will not go back to using older bash-based initsystems and thus devuan. I strongly believe that systemd brand is a worst thing that happened to Linux, hindering the spread and innovation in the Linux space, but at the same time I have to admit that systemd-as-pid1 is the best init system out there.

if other systems had actual good idea about how to do pid 1, they'd be used. Systemd despise its issues solved a lot of problems. There were many before but most just aimed to be slightly less shit sysv. The problem of systemd was the fact Lennart Poettering is smartest person in the universe and why the smartest person in the universe would bother to listen to feedback of any lesser beings ?

> they'd be used

That's not how the world works. Oftentimes (most times) political decisions take place with zero or little merit.

> The problem of systemd was the fact Lennart Poettering

As I see it, his incredible arrogancy is the main source of the destructive vibe with systemd. He is actually the smartest person in this space, but paradoxically that doesn't make him right.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#106

Post by zbentley »

blueflow wrote: post #48
embedding-shape wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it someone's else's fault for that systemd has dependencies or that others depend on systemd? If I use and like Firefox, and others depend on Firefox, or Firefox depend on others, then it's Firefox fault for you choosing Firefox? I really don't understand the argument you're trying to make. You had choices before systemd, and you still have choices even though systemd is widespread, what's the problem? It isn'…

With everything depending on systemd interfaces, its an exhausting uphill battle to run anything desktop-like without systemd. Want to run xterm? Requires Xorg. rootless Xorg requires udev, udev turned into a systemd component. want to run xterm without systemd? good luck, you are now the maintainer of your own LFS.

Yeah, it’s miserable; xterm shouldn’t require Xorg. It should be agnostic to display system and not force the X monoculture on everyone. Classic Microsoft gestapo tactics: shoehorn Xorg dependencies into tons of unrelated apps and thus curtail user freedom to run xterm with a WinForms or Wayland display system. It’s appalling.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#107

Post by zbentley »

zkag101 wrote: post #79
GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #9

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

You could do the same in a less invasive manner with daemontools like forever. Not only on Linux, but on BSD as well. But people need a corporate and worse knockoff shoved down their throats, because DJ Bernstein is independent and we cannot have independent people in software.

I wrote a lot of daemontools wrappers and non-shell forking daemons.

Doing this is really, really error prone and fragile. Why the hell should I have to learn about double forking and PIDfe validation (and process groups and pty-or-not and all those other esoterica that daemontools still requires you to engage with if you want to do something outlandish like “run a program with a graphical component at boot”) just to make something run in the background?

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#109

Post by account42 »

claudex wrote: post #38
fernandotakai wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same. i still remember how painful it was to setup services without systemd. having to manually deal with daemons was so painful, to the point of being exoteric.

The worst was editing an existing service for the distribution. With systemd you just need an override file, without, you have to patch the file and review it each time it is upgraded to check the differences.

Only if your config sucks at /etc/ management. But ultimately you change the default config then it's good to be notified when there are upstream changes to it so that you can decide for yourself if they are important/irrelevant/harmful for you and adapt your version accordingly.

Re: Devuan – Debian Without Systemd

#110

Post by cmxch »

GuestFAUniverse wrote: post #9

I don't care: I can administer with relatively high confidence any Redhat- or Debian-derivate. Thanks to systems. Most issues regarding systemd I encountered were due to a halfway adoption (Debian). Some things like timers are a bit more cumbersome than "the old way", but I wouldn't want to miss the added robustness. Most things systemd implements lead to _less_ issues. And writing a systemd unit is pretty easy, cont…

Only if you have no issue with the bloat of additional binary parsing of essentially text logs.
Post reply on HN