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ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

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Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#101

Post by flomo »

microtonal wrote: post #39
canpan wrote: post #12

Can someone explain, why this is done? I get a feeling, it's normally done when a company is in trouble or will soon? But they should have more money than ever. They say it is to focus on innovation, but if you are a smart young person in NL, would you want to work where they just fired 1700 people? And if you already work there and are a top player it is a good time to rethink? A company I know wanted to focus, inst…

Actually, they are eliminating 3000 of the 4500 engineering manager positions. However, of those 3000, they are moving 1400 to an engineering position. The article also says that engineers are spending 35% of the time coordinating with their managers and that they want to cut the red tape with this move. Of course, it's hard to tell how much is PR and how much reality. However, if there is substance to it, it would w…

> of those 3000, they are moving 1400 to an engineering position

Interesting. In old companies the only way to climb the ladder (get a raise) was to get into management. And then if they were a bad manager, they might get 'sidemoted' into some position where they could still contribute. Anyway, back in the old days, it was not uncommon to see 'managers' or even 'directors' with no direct reports.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#103

Post by moffkalast »

zwaps wrote: post #73
skrebbel wrote: post #13

The press release ( https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2026/strengtheni... ) seems remarkably to the point, for CEO press release standards. I'm impressed by their ambition to fire 1700 managers (!) That's a lot of managers! I interviewed with ASML a decade and a half ago and while there was plenty to complain about (eg their tens of millions of lines of absolutely unmaintainable C code), I didn't feel at th…

Many large corporations in Europe, especially in sectors of prior consistent growth and profit, are chock full of too many managers. These are people who primarily create work for themselves and each other. I have sat in meetings about meetings for actions that, ultimately, have zero impact, in teams where managers involve outnumber people who actually execute anything three to one. It's staggering. I believe the bes…

As soon as you let some Germans into your company they will turn the bureaucracy up to 12 if allowed to, tale as old as time. It's a national culture more or less.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#104

Post by joe_mamba »

alias_neo wrote: post #98
joe_mamba wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Within a couple of years the Philips people were able to transform the company to be very management/top heavy until nothing worked anymore You see the same pattern with Siemens and a lot of their spinoffs: Continental(VDO), Infineon, Qimonda, Gigaset, Healthineers (yes, that's a real name that somebody got paid to come up with), etc THe ones without some major moat like trains or energy, got slowly run into the gr…

> Qimonda Sorry for the tangent, I haven't heard this name in over 15 years, I interviewed with them the summer before the final year of my BEng, and was offered a job in China to allegedly built a real-time voice/video communications system between what they said were their three facilities in beautiful looking part of China I can't remember the name of now. Looking through my Gmail, it was 2008 they offered my the…

Thanks for sharing. You know what's ironic about Qimonda? China bought their IP after they went under, and used it to build two domestic NAND and DRAM manufacturers that are set to become giants.

Funny how China has the vision to use, finance and monetize where western governments keep failing.

That's what hurts the most to see. EU says they want a strong domestic electronics industry, but with the exception of ASML, they really don't do nearly enough to grow it or even to maintain it.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#105

Post by fc417fc802 »

any1 wrote: post #60
canpan wrote: post #12

Can someone explain, why this is done? I get a feeling, it's normally done when a company is in trouble or will soon? But they should have more money than ever. They say it is to focus on innovation, but if you are a smart young person in NL, would you want to work where they just fired 1700 people? And if you already work there and are a top player it is a good time to rethink? A company I know wanted to focus, inst…

I worked for a company that went through 2 cycles like this and I can report that it had zero effect on us engineers. My impression was that people were constantly being promoted into management and at some point we just had too many managers and that's why it was done. Of course, when you know this, the question becomes: why allow things to get to this point in the first place?

Presumably because people expect to be promoted periodically, so they pile up on the high end until the symptom gets corrected all at once. A realistic (but quite controversial) solution might be to emulate other companies that have done away with most of the promotion hierarchy. Different roles but more or less standardized pay across all employees and an understanding that promotions aren't a thing. Rather than climbing a ladder you're there to get shit done.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#106

Post by shawabawa3 »

romanovcode wrote: post #91
nialv7 wrote: post #77

It's insane to me how the manager culture is. Somehow going from an engineer to a manager is a "promotion"? No, they are equals. Just different people doing different kinds of jobs. There should be two tracks and people should be able to choose. If engineers feel they have to become managers to grow their careers, all you are getting will just be unhappy engineers and bad managers.

> No, they are equals. The salary is not equal.

in many tech companies they are, an IC6 is paid the same or similar to an M6

The difference is there will probably be a lot more M7+ than IC7+ so getting to the higher ranks is easier as a manager

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#107

Post by maciejzj »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #49
maciejzj wrote: post #28

Guys, is the current narrative that, due to AI, pure engineering is gone and we’re all supposed to be “managers”, or is it the other way around? I kinda lost the plot here.

Magically, spending money on datacenters and gear makes working code fantastically appear from the aether and so engineers can be paid the same as janitors. That's what the suits believe now.

Yeah, irony put asisde, I believe that the reality is that people who already have power will consolidate it even more. Regardless if you were an average engineer, mid-level manager, consultant, whatever, you will be thrown under the bus any day. People can make up any identity and philosophy of entrepreneur/vibe engineer/manager/hardcore engineer/guy who run away to trades/anything but it doesn't change the fact that an average Joe is economically not viable in the current setup and he can't do anything particular to turn the tides.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#108

Post by Tade0 »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #67
Nition wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, white-collar work at all levels is eliminated, as are creative pursuits (art, music, etc), and we can finally return to humanity's true calling - manual labour.

This but unironically. I'm hoping I can get into the skilled blue collar labor before it gets flooded by the hordes of unemployed AI researchers circa the 2030s (likely 2028 lol). No I'm not even kidding

I wouldn't sweat about it.

In my ~40mln country the construction sector (that includes renovation, landscaping etc.) outnumbers the IT sector 3:1.

Lead times for having things done around here are ridiculous, which is why I believe the former can absorb half of the latter with little change in salaries.

Re: ASML staffing changes could result in a net reduction of around 1700 positions

#109

Post by nialv7 »

romanovcode wrote: post #91
nialv7 wrote: post #77

It's insane to me how the manager culture is. Somehow going from an engineer to a manager is a "promotion"? No, they are equals. Just different people doing different kinds of jobs. There should be two tracks and people should be able to choose. If engineers feel they have to become managers to grow their careers, all you are getting will just be unhappy engineers and bad managers.

> No, they are equals. The salary is not equal.

they should be
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