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430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

nytimes.com

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Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#101

Post by throwup238 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69
throwup238 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) by millions of years. The first stone industry - Oldowan - is at least two million years old and might be as old as three million. They predate what we call “archaic humans” by a long time. Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable. We’ve got phytolith [1] and microwear [2] studies showing unambiguous evidence of woodworking going back at least…

> Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) I’m going to use a charged word because Jane Goodall used it. Goodall asserted that humans and chimpanzees (and wolves) are unique among animals in that we have a genocidal tendency [1]. When a group attacks us (or has “land and resources” we want) we don’t just chase them off. We exterminate them. We expend great resources to track them down to ensure they c…

> (and wolves)

And lions. And banded mongooses. And meerkats. And ants. Lots and lots of ant species - they’re actually by far the worst, following colony pheromones to the end of the earth just to get a single ant. Ants that aren’t genocidal to their own species tend to be some of the worst invasive species (like Argentinian ant supercolonies).

I love me some Jane Goodall as much as the next guy but that hypothesis is not taken seriously by primatologists and using the word “genocidal” in this context would get you laughed out of the room. Lethal intergroup aggression, coalitionary killing, and raiding are all different aspects of violent behavior in animals and hominins are far from unique in demonstrating them.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#102

Post by doxeddaily »

riffraff wrote: post #80
drakythe wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait hang on, would they "control" file by finding natural sources (volcano, lightning strike wildfire, etc.) and then make use of that source for controlled sources of light/heat/etc? I guess I've always thought of "control" of fire including the intentional starting thereof.

ah, there's a very good movie about this exact topic (not scientifically accurate, one presumes, but still very good) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Fire_(film)

Not to mention the Iron Maiden song! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF7cWpBTZ6s

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#103

Post by stackghost »

zahlman wrote: post #95
ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first identified tools were 3.3 million years ago, which is before the homo genus emerges. Thus, those were either by Australopithecus afarensis or by a yet unidentified hominid species -- they were still very likely our ancestors (but technically TBD). Then around 2-2.5 million years ago you get the first homo species in the genus homo such as Homo habilis and they created the Oldowan tool culture. Both Australo…

> The first identified tools were 3.3 million years ago I assume these are made of stone? What kind of tools?

I believe the evidence is animal bones that show marks from butchery, as well as actual sharpened stone flakes and other things found primarily in what is now Kenya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomekwi

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#104

Post by ncr100 »

unfitted2545 wrote: post #100
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" We were a large family [1]. > Real "are we the baddies?" moment We were animals. We acted in accordance with our natures. Wolves and chimpanzees aren’t baddies any more than bees or hyenas. Nature is brutal. Today, however, we are more than our natures. We have the capacity to criticize it when it arises in ways we disapprove of. In…

That's kinda ridiculous to think we're not animals anymore, our nature is to use intellect for survival (and though we know we can reduce suffering further we choose not to).

It is a mind bender, yes.

Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation, or that everything that we do is preordained based upon physics. All mindbenders.

I want to believe that I have the ability to make an educated decision when faced e.g. with impulses to suppress or oppress others, I do know that I can consider ramifications and benefits outside of those which directly impact me.

So, perhaps it's better to say, we can be unanimal like rather than simply not animal, at all? What do you think?

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#105

Post by [deleted] »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86
jama211 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an interesting interpretation, but it’s sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me.

> sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me What part of the study strikes you as unsubstantiated?

[deleted]

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#106

Post by nomel »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69
throwup238 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) by millions of years. The first stone industry - Oldowan - is at least two million years old and might be as old as three million. They predate what we call “archaic humans” by a long time. Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable. We’ve got phytolith [1] and microwear [2] studies showing unambiguous evidence of woodworking going back at least…

> Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) I’m going to use a charged word because Jane Goodall used it. Goodall asserted that humans and chimpanzees (and wolves) are unique among animals in that we have a genocidal tendency [1]. When a group attacks us (or has “land and resources” we want) we don’t just chase them off. We exterminate them. We expend great resources to track them down to ensure they c…

I think this is part of the reason humans are so stupid during any sort of divisions where "sides" emerge. To be able to do commit this genocide, you need a very ugly "switch" in your head that can make your actions justifiable/right. I think this switch is the same, emotional, unthinking one that makes some people so religion about teams sports, phone OS, political alignment, etc.

Related, I think this is also the mechanism for how religion tends to stabilize societies/give them cohesion. Rather than having an eventual positive feedback loop of division, the division is placed between some type of "good" and "evil" rather than your neighbor. The "us vs them" division that switch craves is put on something more metaphysical (and sometimes a net benefit, like defining evil as behavior destructive to societies).

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#107

Post by wil421 »

drakythe wrote: post #13
throwup238 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) by millions of years. The first stone industry - Oldowan - is at least two million years old and might be as old as three million. They predate what we call “archaic humans” by a long time. Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable. We’ve got phytolith [1] and microwear [2] studies showing unambiguous evidence of woodworking going back at least…

Well, today I learned something! Thanks for the information, I guess I know which rabbit hole I'm going down today.

To put it into perspective, we did not invent fire.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#108

Post by throwaway173738 »

reactordev wrote: post #82
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" We were a large family [1]. > Real "are we the baddies?" moment We were animals. We acted in accordance with our natures. Wolves and chimpanzees aren’t baddies any more than bees or hyenas. Nature is brutal. Today, however, we are more than our natures. We have the capacity to criticize it when it arises in ways we disapprove of. In…

As equal to their ability to cause it. It’s this dichotomy that makes us, human. We have the power of destruction, the power of criticism, the power of nurturing, and the power to advance. We are amazing animals.

You might say we have eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge but not the tree of wisdom. So although we can act against our base nature we don’t always.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#109

Post by Sharlin »

wil421 wrote: post #107
drakythe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, today I learned something! Thanks for the information, I guess I know which rabbit hole I'm going down today.

To put it into perspective, we did not invent fire.

Well, nobody did, because fire was likely used for tens or hundreds of thousands of years before anyone figured out how to make fire on demand.

Re: 430k-year-old well-preserved wooden tools are the oldest ever found

#110

Post by Jzush »

throwup238 wrote: post #8
drakythe wrote: post #5

430,000 years? Am I reading this headline correctly? (since the site seems to have fallen victim to the HN-hug-of-death). That seems wildly further back than I understood humans to have tools, or even homo sapiens to have existed. ETA: Today I learned I had a much much larger gap in knowledge than I thought I did. Thanks to everyone for the information and links!

Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) by millions of years. The first stone industry - Oldowan - is at least two million years old and might be as old as three million. They predate what we call “archaic humans” by a long time. Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable. We’ve got phytolith [1] and microwear [2] studies showing unambiguous evidence of woodworking going back at least…

It’s so cool and strange to think we have examples of tools that literally predate humans.
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