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Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#101

Post by wizzwizz4 »

jen20 wrote: post #45
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police should have information on people who have broken the law (assuming the laws are reasonable and proportionate – for the moment, let's make that assumption). The police should not have information on non-criminals, except as far as it is genuinely necessary for an investigation. (To the extent that the police do things other than investigating crimes and making arrests, the relevant information should be co…

While I largely agree, this isn't a question of having broken the law or not. The registration is _literally something issued by the DVLA_, so of course government agencies have access to it. The problem in this specific case is where the registration information is not enough to indicate the likely driver.

Behind the scenes, there's a lot of procedure in place to ensure that arbitrary government agencies don't have arbitrary access to arbitrary things that "the government" knows. The DVLA has a legitimate basis for collecting information about vehicle registration, and there are often legitimate reasons to pass this information on to law enforcement; but that doesn't generalise to arbitrary information about the occupants of a vehicle. Collecting arbitrary information just in case the police need it is one, seemingly-benign route to a police state.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#102

Post by watwut »

josephcsible wrote: post #43
watwut wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing unprofessional about it. Austria and German have cameras and send the ticket to the owner of the car - based on the plates. There is no reason to insist this must be face to face thing.

This story is exactly the reason to insist that: cars can be driven by people other than their owners.

Sure. And legal entity that borrows those cars just need to follow the law.

Nothing prevents them from borrowing cars.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#103

Post by ceejayoz »

josephcsible wrote: post #100
ceejayoz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Hey, you got a ticket when you borrowed my car. Pay me back or you don't get to borrow it next time."

If you break the government's rules, that should be between you and the government. I shouldn't have to front the cost of any fines or otherwise be in the middle of it.

If you lend your car to someone, that’s between you and them.

Same if they crash it. Or run it out of gas.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#104

Post by philwelch »

amiga386 wrote: post #25
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

They can still be professional, but Tory cuts made there be a lot fewer police (23,500 police cut from 2010-2019: https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/shock-figures-reveal-23500-polic... ) so they don't have the manpower to sit about waiting for speeders. The UK is not alone in using traffic cameras to enforce speed restrictions. There was a funny example in Germany where their automated cameras blur the face of any passenger…

If they stopped arresting people for mean tweets I'm sure they could more than make up the manpower shortfall.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#105

Post by philwelch »

mercanlIl wrote: post #24
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I’m a bit biased here, because a close friend’s mother was killed by someone speeding through a red light. I think automated enforcement of minor driving infractions is a good thing. More efficient use of government resources. Incentivizes drivers to follow the rules of the road.

Automated systems are fine, they would just be a lot better if they were used to dispatch patrol vehicles in real time rather than mailing letters to auto manufacturers.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#106

Post by philwelch »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #47
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I've never seen someone being against a system like this that wasn't pro speeding themselves.

I've never seen you before either.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#107

Post by philwelch »

pjc50 wrote: post #32
philwelch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

I avoid speeding issues by the one weird trick of not speeding. Besides, money is a big factor here. If you want to make it cost-effective for someone to physically flag down speeders and ticket them, you'll have to raise the ticket fines significantly. And (sensibly) the revenue goes to HMT and not the individual police forces, avoiding America's perverse incentives, so you'd have to raise the police budget as a sep…

Tesla isn't speeding either (probably; if FSD is speeding that's another issue), they're just manufacturing cars and leasing them to people in the UK.

In most US states, auto registration and auto titles are two separate things, which means our automated traffic camera systems can mail the tickets to the people who are probably actually driving the car. But I guess it's easy for a country like Britain to lay that kind of burden on auto manufacturers when they don't have any of them anymore.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#108

Post by pjc50 »

philwelch wrote: post #107
pjc50 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoid speeding issues by the one weird trick of not speeding. Besides, money is a big factor here. If you want to make it cost-effective for someone to physically flag down speeders and ticket them, you'll have to raise the ticket fines significantly. And (sensibly) the revenue goes to HMT and not the individual police forces, avoiding America's perverse incentives, so you'd have to raise the police budget as a sep…

Tesla isn't speeding either (probably; if FSD is speeding that's another issue), they're just manufacturing cars and leasing them to people in the UK. In most US states, auto registration and auto titles are two separate things, which means our automated traffic camera systems can mail the tickets to the people who are probably actually driving the car. But I guess it's easy for a country like Britain to lay that kin…

Not manufacturer, leasing agent. Other manufacturers tend to contract out leasing. This probably happens to them occasionally as well, which makes me wonder how newsworthy this really is.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#109

Post by Mawr »

josephcsible wrote: post #42
faefox wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't, aren't they? If they make traffic stops for speeding people will moan about how they're just trying to meet quotas or ask why they aren't going after "real criminals." People just want to drive irresponsibly and they will invent any reason to justify why they're the victim, actually.

You've inadvertently completed both parts of a proof by cases. We don't want speeding laws enforced at all right now, because most speed limits are way too low, because they're set for reasons other than actual traffic safety. Let's raise all speed limits to the 85th percentile speed first and only then talk about stepping up enforcement.

Let's not. The Xth percentile speed is not an appropriate measure for a few reasons:

1. Humans are not generally capable of sufficiently accurate long-term low-incidence risk assessment. Meaning, you irrationally value potentially getting to work 10 seconds faster over a 50% increased chance you run over a child crossing the street.

2. Humans are subject to too many irrational psychological factors; stuff like:

• False sense of security due to sitting in a box isolated from the outside world, that's advertised to keep them "safe" in case of a collision.

• Herd mentality, e.g. "everyone's going over the limit, so I will too". Bonus points for rationalizing this behavior "because it's safer to go at the speed of traffic!".

• Delusional rationalizations like "if the limit is 50 then going 10 over must be fine too, due to !". Bonus points for applying the "5/10/15/20 over" rule for every possible speed limit — basic maths and physics say hello!

3. The speed humans will travel at on a given road depends primarily on what speed that road seems designed for. People will drive faster on straight, wide roads and slower on winding, narrow ones, regardless of the speed limit. Changing speed limits has little effect compared to changing the physical infrastructure. Show me a picture of a road and I'll tell you how fast people will drive on it.

As such, it makes no sense to first make some sort of a road and only then figure out the limits by observing real traffic. Figure out the appropriate limit first, then design the road with it in mind.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#110

Post by josephcsible »

Mawr wrote: post #109
josephcsible wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've inadvertently completed both parts of a proof by cases. We don't want speeding laws enforced at all right now, because most speed limits are way too low, because they're set for reasons other than actual traffic safety. Let's raise all speed limits to the 85th percentile speed first and only then talk about stepping up enforcement.

Let's not. The Xth percentile speed is not an appropriate measure for a few reasons: 1. Humans are not generally capable of sufficiently accurate long-term low-incidence risk assessment. Meaning, you irrationally value potentially getting to work 10 seconds faster over a 50% increased chance you run over a child crossing the street. 2. Humans are subject to too many irrational psychological factors; stuff like: • Fal…

> Bonus points for rationalizing this behavior "because it's safer to go at the speed of traffic!".

But that's true (look up the Solomon curve), and it's exactly why the 85th percentile would be better.

> Delusional rationalizations like "if the limit is 50 then going 10 over must be fine too, due to !". Bonus points for applying the "5/10/15/20 over" rule for every possible speed limit — basic maths and physics say hello!

You have cause and effect backwards. People think it's safe to go over the speed limit precisely because most speed limits are too low.

> Changing speed limits has little effect compared to changing the physical infrastructure. Show me a picture of a road and I'll tell you how fast people will drive on it.

Right. So even if going slower is safer, just making the speed limit lower won't accomplish that.

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