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Indifference is a power (2015)

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Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#101

Post by nathan_compton »

everdrive wrote: post #11

Actual stoicism is kind of darkly funny. Here's a word-for-word (translated, of course) excerpt from Epictetus: "It's possible to understand what nature wants from situations where we're no different from other people. For example, when a slave breaks someone else's cup we're instantly ready to say 'These things happen.' So when it's a cup of yours that gets broken, appreciate that you have the same attitude as when…

I don't see this as particularly dark or particularly funny. Seems like good advice. Most of our negative emotions are a waste of time and energy. I always try to see things in the greater context of the world: all things are brief, beautiful, and utterly without meaning in the greater scheme of things. If I spend a ton of time wailing and grinding my teeth about shit then I'm just wasting time I could be using to enjoy the experience of being alive.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#102

Post by Aurornis »

zozbot234 wrote: post #84
Aurornis wrote: post #66

I find classic Stoicism interesting, but these modern social media and influencer versions of Stoicism feel like something else entirely. The heading and subheading of this article invoke ideas of indifference and warriors and prisoners. This appeals to frustrated people, more often men, who are struggling with emotional regulation and want a solution that feels like a tough response. Maybe there’s something useful i…

Proper Stoicism is not about dodging your emotions, it's very much about dodging the adverse behavioral effects of your emotions. You're encouraged to work through your emotions proactively and in depth (the Stoics encouraged askesis which literally means 'training' or 'exercise') so that they don't adversely affect you and others down the road. Of course, you should also learn how to counter these effects in the mom…

> Proper Stoicism is not about dodging your emotions, it's very much about dodging the adverse behavioral effects of your emotions.

I’m not disagreeing with this. I understand classic stoicism, but I’ve also seen the effects of modern pseudo-stoicism as pushed by influencers and social media.

Focusing on stoicism and trying to dodge the effects of your emotions is a reasonable strategy for someone who is truly stuck in a situation, like the prisoners or warriors cited in the article.

But it becomes a self-defeating action when the situation you’re dealing with is something that should be addressed or changed rather than dealing with it like you’re a prisoner and helpless victim. The common example is someone in a toxic job who is furiously consuming stoicism social media and trying to act stoic in the face of a job they hate instead of using that energy to apply for another job.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#103

Post by NoGravitas »

everdrive wrote: post #80
tsunamifury wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That's a rude and inaccurate summary of Aurelius.

It's reductive, but not totally inaccurate. The Stoics hated the Epicureans, because the Epicureans preached withdrawal from politics and the quest for political (military) honors, whereas the Stoics made those one of the defining principles of the virtuous life. Stoicism was adapted to imperialism in a way Epicureanism was not. Same way Pauline/proto-orthodox Christianity won out over the diversity of early Christianity --- it was usable by the Roman Empire.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#104

Post by nathan_compton »

speak_plainly wrote: post #92

If Socratic philosophy is the greatest threat to state power, Stoicism is the framework for mass compliance. It's a psychological strategy for emotional management that replaces the traditional goals of inquiry. This system encourages individuals to obey authority and limit their emotional range to reach a state of internal comfort. This objective discourages the act of questioning. In this regard, it functions as an…

I don't think of stoicism as passive, though - it is just about responding rationally rather than irrationally, and one important aspect is focus on what can actually be modified, controlled or accomplished, not on fantasy. That idea seems crucial to modernity, where the main manner of control is to dangle outrage after outrage in front of everyone to keep them focused on spectacle and NOT focused on what they can actually, materially, physically do to change the world.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#105

Post by [deleted] »

yesitcan wrote: post #88
threethirtytwo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m tired of the whole “toxic masculinity” framing. First, it’s sloppy. Plenty of genuinely harmful traits exist, but trying to pin them to “masculine” or “feminine” archetypes is more ideology than analysis. If the problem is bad behavior, just call it bad behavior. Adding a gender label doesn’t improve clarity, it just adds noise. Second, it’s selectively applied. Many traits that are equally destructive are rarely…

> As a non-toxic and extremely moral male biological specimen, I’ll just note that attaching moral failure to the male gender category feels oddly out of step with modern norms around inclusivity. It’s as vile and disgusting as referring to a person by the wrong pronoun. This would read like satire in most places besides HN

[deleted]

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#106

Post by raffael_de »

drakenot wrote: post #9
parpfish wrote: post #4

I can’t help but think that the rise in stoicisms popularity among manosphere types because it lets them repackage a lot of more undesirable masculine traits under a legitimate label— You’re not allowed to feel things. Emotions make you weak. Just suck it up and power through. Bottle it up. Whether those traits a “real stoicism” or not doesn’t matter, because that’s the way it gets spread through TikTok length discou…

I think that’s more a critique of the modern caricature of stoicism than of Stoicism itself. Classical Stoicism isn’t about suppressing emotions. It’s about understanding your emotions, examining where they come from, and choosing how you respond rather than being ruled by them.

understanding, examining and choosing are all thinking based. and that's why stoicism isn't really working well for humans. emotions are neuropsychologically lower level than thoughts/logic/ratio. having said that, lectures about stoicism might well be excellent instructions for language models on how to handle communication with humans.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#107

Post by nathan_compton »

randomtoast wrote: post #8
blamestross wrote: post #3

My journey with stoicism has been useful and powerful at every phase, but for future and fellow walkers of this path I leave advice: You you a mindful stoic or a dissociated one? I'd argue dissociation, at least in the short term, is a critical part of the process. To not let the gut reactions carry you away. You do often need to realize, those reactions are still often happening. You body does it's own thing and you…

> In the medium term, if you aren't going back and holding the emotions you set aside, you are doing it wrong. Stoicism sells as "magical no emotion land" but you are flesh and flesh has emotions. Both reasonable and unreasonable. You job is to manage and integrate them effectively. I think it's helpful not to identify with your emotions. You may experience emotions, but you are not your emotions. That's the differen…

I guess what I don't get about this is: couldn't you apply the same mode to other internal states? "I understand this," vs "I feel understanding arising in me?"

Maybe that is good, now that I write it out. I think "understanding" is actually a pretty dumb mental state to invest a lot in.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#108

Post by andsoitis »

Aurornis wrote: post #102
zozbot234 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proper Stoicism is not about dodging your emotions, it's very much about dodging the adverse behavioral effects of your emotions. You're encouraged to work through your emotions proactively and in depth (the Stoics encouraged askesis which literally means 'training' or 'exercise') so that they don't adversely affect you and others down the road. Of course, you should also learn how to counter these effects in the mom…

> Proper Stoicism is not about dodging your emotions, it's very much about dodging the adverse behavioral effects of your emotions. I’m not disagreeing with this. I understand classic stoicism, but I’ve also seen the effects of modern pseudo-stoicism as pushed by influencers and social media. Focusing on stoicism and trying to dodge the effects of your emotions is a reasonable strategy for someone who is truly stuck…

It isn’t the fault of an ancient philosophy that modern humans twist it into superficial slob.

It certainly isn’t an indictment against Stoicism.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#109

Post by iammjm »

tsunamifury wrote: post #68

While stoicism was not invented by Marcus Aurelius the particular flavor referred to these days was and let’s be absolutely clear what it was: Stoicism was Aurelius ways to justify mass death and conquering of an empire while creating a mental patterns that roughly said “don’t worry too much about.”

Did you actually ever read something by Aurelius?

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#110

Post by nathan_compton »

begueradj wrote: post #59

Since the Covid theater, Stoicism is everywhere: that's why I don't read about it anymore because wherever the mass and Pavlov dogs head, the truth is elsewhere.

If you always walk in the opposite direction of the crowd you are still letting them control where you go.
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