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39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

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Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#101
Everything John Nagle said is true. But to have a meaningful discussion about it on HN is futile because we need to come together and first admit and agree that exporting everything to China has ruined the economy and culture in the West. That isn’t happening. The best we can do is remind ourselves to follow the guidelines while we get downvoted by brigades.

I watched the video and sent it to family members who are deeply involved and ve$ted in manufacturing in the West. These two boys are unlikely to see anything like this at scale in Europe. That ship has sailed while no one was looking, and it’s not coming back.

Major multi-decade fuckup.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#102
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are saying the same thing they said -- it doesn't scale. It's not how you build a large factory. They acknowledge this and pretty quickly move on to say that they are aiming for smaller and sustainable. They even specifically call out why they chose not to use a conveyor based oven in the video. Basically they believe they can be price reasonable at small scales, small batches. Build process knowledge and experti…

It's not possible to make a competitively priced product that way. What are you going to do, sell artisanal circuit boards on Etsy? Here's a small US-based PCB board and assembly facility in the US, in Hesperia, California.[1] Looks like it might have 20 to 30 employees from the building picture. This is probably about as small as a viable business of this type gets. It doesn't have to be done in a huge plant like JL…

> It's not possible to make a competitively priced product that way. What are you going to do, sell artisanal circuit boards on Etsy?

10 years ago in the US I met someone who owned a company of about 5 people that he largely built off of the acquisition of a single broken pick-and-place machine which he repaired himself. They applied the solder paste manually and finished the boards in what looked like a toaster-oven. Each production run consisted of around 100 units which were sold at $50 apiece. The company is still in business today, as far as I'm aware.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#103
It's impressive how JLCPCB somehow made this process seem so seamless and easy for PCBs but also for other random components one might want.

Recently needed an 4 adapters in sheet metal for a project, two fabrication shops near me quoted >100$. Got JLCPCB to do them all for 12$ with 20$ of shipping. Got them in less than 2 weeks.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#104
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics in Europe is so dead. It is past the point where where it can be revived. One thing is sick overregulation to spin hardware product. Last nail in the coffin today is Cyber Resilience Act. It dwarfs all the regulations before it. Second thing is talent. People can’t hardware anymore. I mean putting a 0402 capacitor on the printed circuit board is not hard. But doing that in meaningful way gets hard. As a c…

>Who wants to be manufacturing technician when you can be lifestyle influencer!? Before influencers people wanted to be actors. It predates the time before Electronics was 'lost' in Europe so thats not a convincing argument. What you are saying really is that the world enjoys what we have on the backs of inadequately paid production engineers in China. As their demographic crisis does not produce a similar sized repl…

Kids in china also want to be lifestyle influencers instead of manufacturing technicians

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#105
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't believe europeans are unable to turn around this situation in as many years as a matter of fact, it's my core beliefs Actually, I DO believe we are unable to turn it around. I've done EE work both in Europe and in China for over a span of 10 years, and what sets China apart from Europe that enabled them to overtake us is the mindset, both at government support level AND at individual level. Chinese operated…

> There's no gender hostility or discrimination I disagree. There is a great deal of variation between countries and companies. My daughter is in automotive electronics (in R & D rather than manufacturing) and her employer and country are at the better end of the spectrum, but there are definitely places where it is very difficult for women. > You can't force people to be attracted to a specific industry or line of w…

>There is a great deal of variation between countries and companies.

Well yes, that was also part of my point. I travelled and worked all over the world in my youth and what I noticed is that women typically choose engineering careers only for the money, stability and benefits of working at engineering corporation if the alternatives like humanities, soft sciences or social/government work pay like shit and the welfare state is lackluster like it's the case is North-/Latin- America, Asia or South/Eastern Europe, not because they're really passionate about engineering.

But if you're in a wealthy welfare state, with high taxes, low income disparity and and well funded government services where a women working as a school teacher for example can take home nearly the same as an engineer while having great government benefits, like Nordic or German speaking countries for instance, then women are more likely to choose those types of humanities careers or other such careers that revolve more around interacting with people over working in engineering.

It is literally that simple. There's no 4D chess psychology to dissect. If you have easy access to easy money, most people will choose the path of least resistance. It's all transactional following Maslow's pyramid of needs. SW dev would also have far fewer people in it if it weren't so well paid.

>but there are definitely places where it is very difficult for women.

Can you explain in detail how exactly those places make it difficult for women and it's not just the correlation I explained above?

Like I'm sure there's some toxic workplaces out there, but that's the case for everyone in a lot of jobs, including(or maybe even especially) those where women are majority, like HR.

In fact, from what I saw in engineering they tend to prioritize attracting female candidates in order to try to break up the massive sausage fest of this profession even if that part is never said out loud.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#106
post #92
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like some HN posters simply read news and don't work in the industry and have actual insights on what's happening. Like Hydac moved some of there assembly from China to Germany. A company in the district nearby, just moved their whole production from Thailand back to here. Yes, production costs are higher. But there is not transportation costs. They don't have long lead times anymore and can react more better…

> that had problems employing people. If possible I would like to know what positions and how much they were offering. I had offerings for a manager position, 15 people, responsibility for the 15, including in house training of them, and part responsibility in the 5 different projects these people were working on. They wanted somebody with background in HW development, 10 years experience in FPGA, experience of at le…

>Wait for it… they offered 80k/year. I don’t know… seems little bit low somebody with like 20 years experience.

In which country?

The sad thing is the state of supply and demand in the economy, doesn't really care how many years of experience you have, or how hard you worked, or how difficult the job is. It'll pay as little as they can get away with.

Sucks, but welcome to being a tax cattle in Europe, where someone on the dole with welfare and credits takes home nearly as much as you do. Thank our politicians for outsourcing everything that wasn't nailed to the ground for 20+ years in the name of shareholder growth.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Augustin here, one of the presenters. As other commenters pointed out, the electronics industry is quite big in Europe, on paper it generates a lot of money and sustains a lot of jobs. The issue is a bit more complex, and you point it out when you say people around you are old and old-fashioned. Like I said in the talk: We used to laugh at the chinese products for how low quality they were 20 years ago, who's lau…

> Electronics is dominated by old dudes, the industry is hostile to newcomers, self-taught people, women, and more. But by making an effort to give people who are starting a good experience, we can turn this around. Completely agree. Then the Semi industry wonders why they're running out of people

>Then the Semi industry wonders why they're running out of people

Yes but they make up with via immigration of candidates on visa. Last time I worked in semi, about 30% of colleagues were on visa from abroad. Today from former collogues still there, I hear it's close to 50%.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#108
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that had problems employing people. If possible I would like to know what positions and how much they were offering. I had offerings for a manager position, 15 people, responsibility for the 15, including in house training of them, and part responsibility in the 5 different projects these people were working on. They wanted somebody with background in HW development, 10 years experience in FPGA, experience of at le…

That's the dirty secret of "the employment shortage". Under pay, no one takes the job, so justify off-shoring. The truth, having talked to employees at big firms, is that in the past, entire factories were off shored to save 10 cents from one single part in a product. Today, most jobs are not just under-paid, they are undignified. Because any job can be gratifying in the right circumstances, even a job on a factory l…

>Under pay, no one takes the job, so justify off-shoring.

You mean to justify easy rubber stamping work visas on candidates from abroad.

Offshoring is usually last resort when costs other than labor are also much cheaper abroad like energy, or there's other incentives like government handouts or tax exemptions that high-CoL EU countries like France or Germany can't compete with.

>Companies dont even care about their customers anymore, we all know it's been more than 15 years since they've cared about their employees. That's how entshittification goes.

What solution would you suggest?

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#109
post #100
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that, there's a company named eurocircuits. Slightly more expensive than JLCPCB, but not 30x.

5pcs 2 layer default settings 80x100mm boards ($4 vs EUR 124) is pretty much 30x.

I double checked because these were not the prices I had in mind.

After looking through the options, I think that's because the designs I did quotations for had 0.2mm holes. This is standard for Eurocircuits, but high precision for JLCPCB.

Note that to get the price you quoted, you'll get lead in your PCB, and vias that are not plated, but plugged with conductive epoxy. Changing that gets you to $14 for 5 boards, which is still way cheaper than Eurocircuits.

I'll keep that in mind for the next PCB I design: keep holes bigger than 0.3mm if possible.

Re: 39c3: In-house electronics manufacturing from scratch: How hard can it be? [video]

#110
post #2

This is painful. They got a used solder mask holder, a Lumen pick and place machine, a bunch of old Siemens feeders, and a small automatic reflow oven. All these tools needed major work. Everything with firmware needed firmware mods. Everything else needed assembly or major cleaning. Everything needed adjustment. They had to 3D print their own solder paste squeegee. They're six months in and still trying to produce o…

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