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ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

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Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#101

Post by shafyy »

Someone1234 wrote: post #51
shafyy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's exactly wrong. The people have the power, but only if enough people resist.

Suggesting that the most legally vulnerable group be careful isn't wrong, it is the reality for which they find themselves. 66%~ of the US either voted for this, or were indifferent about it, and are a group which cannot be deported/denaturalized. Perhaps that group should step up instead of the I think it quite telling hearing born-Americans asking green card and naturalized citizens to be their "resistance" for dec…

FWIW, I am not American and I don't live in the US. But yes, you are right of course. For some part of this group. But there are also many immigrants who can afford to speak up, because they are not necessarily refugees who would get deported back to a warzone or similar.

In the end though, the targeted and vulnerable group need to stand up for themselves, others won't do it. I know it sucks, but it's the reality unfortunately. And yes, others from more comfortable groups should also make a stand (and some people are), but history shows that not many will.

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#102

Post by pepperball »

SimianSci wrote: post #46
krapp wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually about white supremacy and turning the US into a Christofascist ethnostate but y'all aren't ready to take that conversation seriously. The militarization of domestic policing and surveillance is just a means to an end.

I see the Christofascism as more a flavor of the month than a serious unifying ideology. Religion has always been a tool used by those in power to gain favorability with people at scale. But history tells us it is easily manipulated and twisted to serve the needs of the powerful. (Crusades, Colonialism, Slavery, Conservatism) Whatever Christofascism is today, will be boiled down to its fundamental components the mome…

> I see the Christofascism as more a flavor of the month than a serious unifying ideology.

I’ve joked occasionally we should just hand the zealots power as they’d quickly go back to just killing each other over theology.

Wouldn’t you know it all the smug religious revival accounts from unemployed zoomers that have recently flooded my social media seem more interested in attacking different Christian sects. My Facebook has been looking like the 30 years war recently.

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#103

Post by pepperball »

throw-12-16 wrote: post #41
markus_zhang wrote: post #38

Asking as a foreigner who wants to travel to Cali to visit the Computer History Museum sometimes in the future: What is the plan for ICE? Is it going to get more manpower and $$$ to expand its responsibility?

ICE has more funding than the USMC. Go to a country that deserves your tourism, US is not worth visiting.

At least the USMC is staffed by competent alcoholics.

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#104

Post by pepperball »

krapp wrote: post #64
SimianSci wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the Christofascism as more a flavor of the month than a serious unifying ideology. Religion has always been a tool used by those in power to gain favorability with people at scale. But history tells us it is easily manipulated and twisted to serve the needs of the powerful. (Crusades, Colonialism, Slavery, Conservatism) Whatever Christofascism is today, will be boiled down to its fundamental components the mome…

It has roots going all the way back to the founding of the country. The core of American culture and of many of its issues has always been the tension between the conflicting desires for a Puritan theocracy with a strict racial hierarchy and a secular progressive Republic. Slavery was justified by Christian principles, and manifest destiny. Hitler was inspired by America's genocide of native Americans, racial segrega…

> They hate communists because communism is atheist.

A few years ago before the election, a friend and I often joked that you could probably sell a sizable portion of American right on something of a “five year plan”

The MAGA communism meme was going around at the time too. Traditional Cold War era “better dead than red” conservatives I knew were suddenly posting about nationalizing companies that weren’t playing ball with Trump.

The other day, I saw an account rambling about “Anglo-Saxon victory over Judeo-Bolshevik Materialism”. I found that a bit odd. I’ve heard the “Judeo-Bolshevik” schtick, and there’s certainly endless negative aspects of communism, but materialism certainly is not one of them.

But your connection with Atheism ties things together in a way that makes sense.

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#105

Post by mindslight »

throw-12-16 wrote: post #97
mindslight wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEA? ATF? The fact that the "Patriot" Act was basically written and ready long before it was put up for a vote? But of course now I'm on the other side of the argument. The point is that even though it's a long arc, this doesn't invalidate the current urgency. "Slow at first, then all at once"

“All at once” was 2001 for a lot of people. Latinos are the current targets, but they weren’t the first.

If you set your metric at targeting and marginalizing racial groups, you undermine your point even harder re "Patriot" Act being the start.

But also, am I supposed to come away with the conclusion that this is all in line with business as usual and there is nothing to worry about as long as I am white?

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#106

Post by mindslight »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #95
mindslight wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this “madness” today is nothing new What is with this tendency to downplay the current drastic escalations? It feels like a kind of hipster denialism - "I was complaining about the US being a police state before it was cool" but also if it's this is "nothing new" then there's nothing to really earnest worry about, right? How hard is it to acknowledge that we have been gradually losing our rights AND that the Trumpi…

Well, I think the point it is even beyond "how many grains of sand is a pile," which seems like a legitimate point to me. If we don't understand how we got here, it's really hard to figure out hat to do, so pretending as if someone flipped a switch in January of 2025 is not helpful. I say this as a person who has been pepper sprayed by DHS while resisting ICE: the conditions to led to the current bonfire have a lot t…

I'd say someone did flip a switch in 2025 - the rejection of the standard norms of good faith execution of all three branches of government. The government has always been authoritarian. But it had been predominately bureaucratic authoritarianism, while now it's driven by autocratic authoritarianism.

I say this as a libertarian who's right there with you on the "piling up wood".

There are many angles from which to analyze how we got here. Yes, the "centrists" supporting lazy authoritarian laws and agencies because they couldn't bother thinking one step ahead to how they'd be abused. The sprawling surveillance industry pointed out by a sibling comment. Narrower issues of destruction of the fairness doctrine and campaign finance limits. Even many of the refrains of the Trumpists point to problems that were slowly allowed to fester until they reached a breaking point (although as usual for Republicans, the answer they've been stage-managed into is completely self-defeating).

For all of these things it's understandable to want to say "I told you so" - for catharsis, and trying to establish some authority of having a larger context of what direction we need to head in.

But none of that justifies downplaying the situation we're currently staring down, which is what I take issue with.

(also re being pepper sprayed: what's left of your country thanks you for your service)

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#107

Post by bdangubic »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #95
mindslight wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this “madness” today is nothing new What is with this tendency to downplay the current drastic escalations? It feels like a kind of hipster denialism - "I was complaining about the US being a police state before it was cool" but also if it's this is "nothing new" then there's nothing to really earnest worry about, right? How hard is it to acknowledge that we have been gradually losing our rights AND that the Trumpi…

Well, I think the point it is even beyond "how many grains of sand is a pile," which seems like a legitimate point to me. If we don't understand how we got here, it's really hard to figure out hat to do, so pretending as if someone flipped a switch in January of 2025 is not helpful. I say this as a person who has been pepper sprayed by DHS while resisting ICE: the conditions to led to the current bonfire have a lot t…

> If you ignore how we got here you will be unable to understand where really are.

Exactly this is core issue with a lot of people here on HN. The argument goes “oh shit, look what the current 2025 looks like, OMG so bad, we were this amazing bastion of freedom before this and now this administration is doing _____” so shortsighted and un-educated

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#108

Post by bdangubic »

mindslight wrote: post #90
bdangubic wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, since uniformed people have gained legal rights to touch my junk in order for me to be allowed to board the plane (not to mention that they took my toothpaste twice) - every year since then. we have lost every ounce of freedom after 9/11 and this “madness” today is nothing new, we just take for granted now what our own “freedoms” have been reduced to

> this “madness” today is nothing new What is with this tendency to downplay the current drastic escalations? It feels like a kind of hipster denialism - "I was complaining about the US being a police state before it was cool" but also if it's this is "nothing new" then there's nothing to really earnest worry about, right? How hard is it to acknowledge that we have been gradually losing our rights AND that the Trumpi…

Cause what you are doing is sensationalism and exaggeration. “Abuses are routine” - back this up with actual numbers vs. making a crazy blanket statement like that cause you saw 13 clickbait articles in December.

You are 100% right, we have been (not so) gradually losing our rights and Trump et al isn’t really lighting any bonfires, the country has been burning for decades… it is just that the current fires are broadcasted to a wider audience with minute-by-minute play-by-play. and while most people are falling for this shit again (see 2016-2020) the current admin is lining their pockets (which is the one and only goal they have…)

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#109

Post by throw-12-16 »

mindslight wrote: post #105
throw-12-16 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“All at once” was 2001 for a lot of people. Latinos are the current targets, but they weren’t the first.

If you set your metric at targeting and marginalizing racial groups, you undermine your point even harder re "Patriot" Act being the start. But also, am I supposed to come away with the conclusion that this is all in line with business as usual and there is nothing to worry about as long as I am white?

You are conflating America being racist as hell with the establishment of the surveillance state post-9/11, which was largely focused on Arabs.

America has been a racist cesspool for hundreds of years, but since 2001 it has also become a highly advanced surveillance state that has militarized its own police force.

You may not like it, but this has been developing for 25 years and has just now started to (barely) affect white people.

Re: ICE's interest in high-tech gear raises new questions: 'What is it for?'

#110

Post by mindslight »

throw-12-16 wrote: post #109
mindslight wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you set your metric at targeting and marginalizing racial groups, you undermine your point even harder re "Patriot" Act being the start. But also, am I supposed to come away with the conclusion that this is all in line with business as usual and there is nothing to worry about as long as I am white?

You are conflating America being racist as hell with the establishment of the surveillance state post-9/11, which was largely focused on Arabs. America has been a racist cesspool for hundreds of years, but since 2001 it has also become a highly advanced surveillance state that has militarized its own police force. You may not like it, but this has been developing for 25 years and has just now started to (barely) affe…

You've skipped over my two counterexamples of the DEA and the ATF, and their supporting laws criminalizing substances and tools. Those have been around much longer than merely 2001, and had already created some pretty totalitarian spectacles of government attacking the People.

Also driving this conversation towards race reeks of race-to-the-bottom "privilege" politics. Which is why I facetiously asked if your intention is to encourage white people to become less concerned.

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