Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

arxiv.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 180 posts

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#101

Post by kragen »

falcor84 wrote: post #82

How does this compare to the fraction of foreign students studying in other countries and choosing to remain there?

It's hard to compare across countries. No other country has anything like the US's research-university system, although China is working on it. But foreign students in China probably aren't hoping to be able to live there for the rest of their lives—China's immigration policies are considerably more xenophobic. The UK might be the closest comparison?

Generally speaking, American exceptionalism is nonsense. The US isn't the only free country, the freest country, the only democratic country, the most democratic country, the richest country, the most diverse country, a city on the hill, divinely inspired, uniquely blessed by God, the only capitalist country, any of that nonsense. It was some of those when Tocqueville wrote Democracy in America, but it hasn't been for decades. But the US's research university system is unique in the world, and nobody else even comes close.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#102

Post by maxglute »

cavisne wrote: post #65

“40% move to China” This is the plan not a coincidence. China pays huge “grants” to their citizens to come to the US, get educated, work in big tech/science, then bring it all home.

Thousand talent tier incentive is drop in the bucket, most sea turtles return because only so high you can climb in US with cold war bamboo ceiling. Past certain point, both US PRC can cut big checks, PRC lets a yellow face climb to top.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#103

Post by j7ake »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #91
j7ake wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suggestion would have fewer fresh eyes to look at the problem. If the scientific enterprise were just about churning out widgets, then yes it’s better to have permanent staff. But having a strong training pipeline for the globe is a huge plus for US prestige, and the top people are still offered jobs as faculty or industry within the country, so it still a net gain for USA. But it’s brutally competitive for the…

Thats interesting, I don't know if I have ever seen this kind of labor market logic applied to science before. Is this an agreed upon idea? In my mind, science and the kind of focused research it entails is kind of definitionally distinct from something like "innovation." Like, frankly, yes, I want a stream of widgets; if that means consistent units of research done to contribute to an important area/problem, which a…

Are you suggesting science and innovation are distinct?

Scientific progress is largely driven by the “Steve Jobs” of sciences.

Only a tiny fraction of papers remain relevant. So that means the quality of the average paper doesn’t matter as much as the quality of the best paper.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#104

Post by secondcoming »

materials4028 wrote: post #94
cavisne wrote: post #65

“40% move to China” This is the plan not a coincidence. China pays huge “grants” to their citizens to come to the US, get educated, work in big tech/science, then bring it all home.

If this is true (I doubt it happens at scale), then the US got to benefit from some severely underpaid labor for a couple years at no cost to the taxpayer. What's there not to like?

It happens at scale. UK universities are also heavily subsidised by Chinese students. I also, where I am, I don't really see these students working in part-time jobs to pay the bills.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#105

Post by analog31 »

materials4028 wrote: post #59
msteffen wrote: post #29

My understanding is that scientific research has a dual problem, where the number of students needed to carry out existing professors' research is much larger than the number of junior faculty positions generally available. The result being that most trained PhDs must leave (US) academia because there are no jobs for them. In fact, I've heard scientists complain that universities owe it to students to provide more he…

> much larger than the number of junior faculty positions generally available Expanding on this a bit, insight credited to bonoboTP: in a steady state the number of junior faculty positions will only open up at the same rate as current faculty retires. But each faculty member is expected to train dozens of students that are all in principle qualified for such jobs. Therefore, the vast majority, let's say 95%, of PhD…

When I was a physics grad student ~35 years go, this was called "the birth control problem. I had every intention of going into industry. I described it to my dad who got his PhD in the 1950s and he said it was the same back then. But there's a perennial "this time it will be different."

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#106

Post by SimianSci »

mmooss wrote: post #79
SimianSci wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While indeed a positive outlook, I think alot of Americans are beginning to wonder what the benefit will be to them. The isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development. While I dont agree with the sentiment, its not entirely incorrect to describe such relationships are parasitic more then…

> isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development I think the rhetoric is the cause, not the response to that sense (besides the obvious feedback loop). Internationalism created a world of unprecendented - literally in human history - freedom, peace and prosperity. You can see what things l…

I would implore you to empathize with the American working class, who have seen their living standards continuously deteriorate over multiple generations.

I know the hackernews audience skews more affluent and wealthy, with demographics pulling from more developed coastal cities, but the vast majority of citizens do not exist in such living conditions. Focusing entirely on the development an prosperity of only a handful of our cities is what has created the perfect fertile soil for Xenophobia to grow. I dont see the rhetoric as the cause, just the motions of opportunists taking advantage of a situation that we are all at fault for. Despite all the freedom, peace, and prosperity, its so unevenly distributed that many citizens live in squalor rivaling some destitute underdeveloped nations.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#107

Post by almosthere »

nutjob2 wrote: post #58
integralid wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not "exporting" anything. PhDs are people, they pay for their education and they leave. Nevertheless responding to your question: >Contrary to common perceptions, US technology benefits from these graduates' work even if they leave: though the US share of global patent citations to graduates' science drops from 70% to 50% after migrating, it remains five times larger than the destination country share

So let me see: a person from another country receives a service that is exclusive, very limited and in high demand (PhD), pays for it, and that person eventually takes it back to country of origin. US education must be in a woeful state because that is the definition of export. Given the exclusivity and value of the service you'd think you'd want to hang on to it, but I guess xenophobia is one thing that is more impo…

I've been hearing nothing but bad things about the actual education in US institutions. I think they've tarnished their name at this point to no return.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#108

Post by resters »

lingrush4 wrote: post #54
resters wrote: post #42

It's the second (so far bc he hasn't ruled out a third) presidential term for a strongly anti-immigrant / anti-immigration president who has a lot of support domestically. Immigrants are being chased out of the US in record numbers. Many of my friends with brown skin (second generation immigrants) are worried their kids will be harrassed by ICE, etc. The sad fact is that there are a LOT of Americans who deeply resent…

Sorry to ruin your mudslinging, but if you read the second sentence of the linked study, you'll see the American voters' choice of president has nothing to do with this: > Leave rates are lower in the life sciences and higher in AI and quantum science but overall have been stable for decades

Not true. The article asserts that immigration policy is a big driver of "stay rates" for immigrants.

Also, I did not assert that either party is "good" on immigration. The US should relax restrictions and allow many more immigrants to enter/study/work/live.

If we really want growth, fully open borders would double world GDP.

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#109

Post by selimthegrim »

SimianSci wrote: post #106
mmooss wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> isolationist and xenophobic rhetoric of recent years is mostly a reaction to a growing sense that increasingly few Americans are benefiting from global goodwill and development I think the rhetoric is the cause, not the response to that sense (besides the obvious feedback loop). Internationalism created a world of unprecendented - literally in human history - freedom, peace and prosperity. You can see what things l…

I would implore you to empathize with the American working class, who have seen their living standards continuously deteriorate over multiple generations. I know the hackernews audience skews more affluent and wealthy, with demographics pulling from more developed coastal cities, but the vast majority of citizens do not exist in such living conditions. Focusing entirely on the development an prosperity of only a hand…

I think you’re making a lot of unjustified assumptions about the HN audience

Re: A quarter of US-trained scientists eventually leave

#110

Post by mmooss »

selimthegrim wrote: post #109
SimianSci wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would implore you to empathize with the American working class, who have seen their living standards continuously deteriorate over multiple generations. I know the hackernews audience skews more affluent and wealthy, with demographics pulling from more developed coastal cities, but the vast majority of citizens do not exist in such living conditions. Focusing entirely on the development an prosperity of only a hand…

I think you’re making a lot of unjustified assumptions about the HN audience

And about me.
Post reply on HN