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A new AI winter is coming?

taranis.ie

101–110 of 301 posts

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#101
As someone who is an expert in the area, everything in this article is misleading nonsense, failing at even the most basic CS101 principles. The level of confusion here is astounding.

> People were saying that this meant that the AI winter was over

The last AI winter was over 20 years ago. Transformers came during an AI boom.

> First time around, AI was largely symbolic

Neural networks were already hot and the state of the art across many disciplines when Transformers came out.

> The other huge problem with traditional AI was that many of its algorithms were NP-complete

Algorithms are not NP-complete. That's a type error. Problems can be NP-complete, not algorithms.

> with the algorithm taking an arbitrarily long time to terminate

This has no relationship to something being NP-complete at all.

> but I strongly suspect that 'true AI', for useful definitions of that term, is at best NP-complete, possibly much worse

I think the author means that "true AI" returns answers quickly and with high accuracy? A statement that has no relationship to NP-completeness at all.

> For the uninitiated, a transformer is basically a big pile of linear algebra that takes a sequence of tokens and computes the likeliest next token

This is wrong on many levels. A Transformer is not a linear network, linear networks are well-characterized and they aren't powerful enough to do much. It's the non-linearities in the Transformer that allows it to work. And only Decoders compute the distribution over the next token.

> More specifically, they are fed one token at a time, which builds an internal state that ultimately guides the generation of the next token

Totally wrong. This is why Transformers killed RNNs. Transformers are provided all tokens simultaneously and then produce a next token one at a time. RNNs don't have that ability to simultaneously process tokens. This is just totally the wrong mental model of what a Transformer is.

> This sounds bizarre and probably impossible, but the huge research breakthrough was figuring out that, by starting with essentially random coefficients (weights and biases) in the linear algebra, and during training back-propagating errors, these weights and biases could eventually converge on something that worked.

Again, totally wrong. Gradient descent dates back to the late 1800s early 1900s. Backprop dates back to the 60s and 70s. So this clearly wasn't the key breakthrough of Transformers.

> This inner loop isn't Turing-complete – a simple program with a while loop in it is computationally more powerful. If you allow a transformer to keep generating tokens indefinitely this is probably Turing-complete, though nobody actually does that because of the cost.

This isn't what Turing-completeness is. And by definition all practical computing is not a Turing Machine, simply because TMs require an infinite tape. Our actual machines are all roughly Linear Bounded Automata. What's interesting is that this doesn't really provide us with anything useful.

> Transformers also solved scaling, because their training can be unsupervised

Unsupervised methods predate Transformers by decades and were already the state of the art in computer vision by the time Transformers came out.

> In practice, the transformer actually generates a number for every possible output token, with the highest number being chosen in order to determine the token.

Greedy decoding isn't the default in most applications.

> The problem with this approach is that the model will always generate a token, regardless of whether the context has anything to do with its training data.

Absolutely not. We have things like end tokens exactly for this, to allow the model to stop generating.

I got tired of reading at this point. This is drivel by someone who has no clue what's going on.

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#103
Every critique of AI assumes to some degree that contemporary implementations will not, or cannot, be improved upon.

Lemma: any statement about AI which uses the word "never" to preclude some feature from future realization is false.

Lemma: contemporary implementations have almost always already been improved upon, but are unevenly distributed.

(Ximm's Law)

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#105
post #61

I think the author is onto something. but (s)he didn’t highlight that there are some scenarios where factual accuracy is unimportant, or maybe even a detractor. for example, fictional stories. If you want to be entertained and it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, there’s no downsides to “hallucinations”. you could argue that stories ARE hallucinations. another example is advertisements. what matters is how people p…

Have you ever see how much work is spent on writing a novel? Even a short one? Character and world building are not easy and require very logical reasoning even if the premise are imaginary. You can say something is humans then give it three hands in the next sentence.

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#106
post #64
post #31

LLMs are an amazing advancement. The tech side of things is very impressive. Credit where credit is due. Where the current wave all falls apart is on the financials. None of that makes any sense and there’s no obvious path forward. Folks say handwavy things like “oh they’ll just sell ads” but even a cursory analysis shows that math doesn’t ad up relative to the sums of money being invested at the moment. Tech wise I’…

Hard disagree, I'm in the process of deploying several AI solutions in Healthcare. We have a process a nurse usually spends about an hour on, and costs $40-$70 depending on if they are offshore and a few other factors. Our AI can match it at a few dollars often less. A nuse still reviews the output, but its way less time. The economics of those tokens is great. We have another solution that just finds money, $10-$30…

Are the companies providing these AI services actually profitable? My impression is that AI prices are grossly suppressed and might explode soon.

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#107
post #57
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument that computational complexity has something to do with this could have merit but the article certainly doesn’t give indication as to why. OP says it is because that predicting the next token can be correct or not, but it always looks plausible because that is what it calculates. Therefore it is dangerous and can not be fixed because it is how it works in essence.

I just want to point out a random anecdote. Literally yesterday ChatGPT hallucinated an entire feature of a mod for a video game I am playing including making up a fake console command. It just straight up doesn’t exist, it just seemed like a relatively plausible thing to exist. This is still happening. It never stopped happening. I don’t even see a real slowdown in how often it happens. It sometimes feels like the o…

To take a different perspective on the same event.

The model expected a feature to exist because it fitted with the overall structure of the interface.

This in itself can be a valuable form of feedback. I currently don't know of any people doing it, but testing interfaces by getting LLMs to use them could be an excellent resource. Th the AI runs into trouble, it might be worth checking your designs to see if you have any inconsistencies, redundancies or other confusion causing issues.

One would assume that a consistent user interface would be easier for both AI and humas. Fixing the issues would improve it for both.

That failure could be leveraged into an automated process that identified areas to improve.

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#108
Token economics are very sound - it's the training which is expensive.

Tokens/week have gone up 23x year-over-year according to https://openrouter.ai/rankings. This is probably around $500M-1B in sales per year.

The real question is where the trajectory of this rocket ship is going. Will per-token pricing be a race to the bottom against budget chinese model providers? Will we see another 20x year year over the next 3 years, or will it level out sooner?

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#109
This blog post is full of bizarre statements and the author seems almost entirely ignorant of the history or present of AI. I think it's fair to argue there may be an AI bubble that will burst, but this blog post is plainly wrong in many ways.

Here's a few clarifications (sorry this is so long...):

"I should explain for anyone who hasn't heard that term [AI winter]... there was much hope, as there is now, but ultimately the technology stagnated. "

The term AI winter typically refers to a period of reduced funding for AI research/development, not the technology stagnating (the technology failing to deliver on expectations was the cause of the AI winter, not the definition of AI winter).

"[When GPT3 came out, pre-ChatGPT] People were saying that this meant that the AI winter was over, and a new era was beginning."

People tend to agree there were two AI winters already, one having to do with symbolic AI disappointments/general lack of progress (70s), and the latter related to expert systems (late 80s). That AI winter has long been over. The Deep Learning revolution started in ~2012, and by 2020 (GPT 3) huge amount of talent and money were already going into AI for years. This trend just accelerated with ChatGPT.

"[After symbolic AI] So then came transformers. Seemingly capable of true AI, or, at least, scaling to being good enough to be called true AI, with astonishing capabilities ... the huge research breakthrough was figuring out that, by starting with essentially random coefficients (weights and biases) in the linear algebra, and during training back-propagating errors, these weights and biases could eventually converge on something that worked."

Transformers came about in 2017. The first wave of excitement about neural nets and backpropagation goes all the way back to the late 80s/early 90s, and AI (computer vision, NLP, to a lesser extent robotics) were already heavily ML-based by the 2000s, just not neural-net based (this changed in roughly 2012).

"All transformers have a fundamental limitation, which can not be eliminated by scaling to larger models, more training data or better fine-tuning ... This is the root of the hallucination problem in transformers, and is unsolveable because hallucinating is all that transformers can do."

The 'highest number' token is not necessarily chosen, this depends on the decoding algorithm. That aside, 'the next token will be generated to match that bad choice' makes it sound like once you generate one 'wrong' token the rest of the output is also wrong. A token is a few characters, and need not 'poison' the rest of the output.

That aside, there are plenty of ways to 'recover' from starting to go down the wrong route. A key aspect of why reasoning in LLMs works well is that it typically incorporates backtracking - going earlier in the reasoning to verify details or whatnot. You can do uncertainty estimation in the decoding algorithm, use a secondary model, plenty of things (here is a detailed survey https://arxiv.org/pdf/2311.05232 , one of several that is easy to find).

"The technology won't disappear – existing models, particularly in the open source domain, will still be available, and will still be used, but expect a few 'killer app' use cases to remain, with the rest falling away."

A quick google search shows ChatGPT currently has 800 million weekly active users who are using it for all sorts of things. AI-assisted programming is certainly here to stay, and there are plenty of other industries in which AI will be part of the workflow (helping do research, take notes, summarize, build presentations, etc.)

I think discussion is good, but it's disappointing to see stuff with this level of accuracy being on front page of HN.

Re: A new AI winter is coming?

#110
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The development of LLM's required access to huge amounts of decent training data. It could very well that the current generation of AI has poisoned the well for any future endeavors of creating AI. You can't trivially filter out the AI slop and humans are less likely to make their handcrafted content freely available for training. In fact violating GPL code to train models on it might be ruled to be illegal as well g…

That would create the impetus to create a training data marketplace.

Maybe the path to redemption for AI stealing jobs would be if people would have to be rehired en masse to write and produce art, about whatever they want, so that it can be used to train more advanced AI.
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