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Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

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Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#101

Post by bloudermilk »

latency-guy2 wrote: post #99
bloudermilk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but arguments like this ignore the point. For many authors and maintainers, ‘free software’ and ‘open source’ as traditionally defined result in unsustainable outcomes. The original article cites articles explaining several such issues. Many people in the software industry are looking for new licensing models that take these systemic issues into account. It’s the ecosystem evolving to address curren…

> arguments like this ignore the point. And the point should be ignored even more. Free software is a fairly specific thing, trying to co-opt it into something it isn't makes you the bad actor Make your own idea instead of stealing and leeching off the success of others. Thats frankly disrespectful to even have the gall to do this. You definitely don't deserve ruining another's image for your idea of how society shou…

This is precisely what the author is attempting to do.

> I know my goal: shift the default in open source from “it’s free for anyone to use” to “please don’t use this if you’re evil”. I don’t just want to do this for my little project; I want to slowly change the discourse. I’m not sure how to do that effectively, if it’s even possible.

> I remain unconvinced at the societal value of “freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose”, often called freedom 0. I don’t want to donate my work to the bad guys!

They never use the term “free software” to describe their goals. To the extent they use the term “open source” it’s in the lowercase informal form. How else should they describe their ideas if not using this terminology?

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#102

Post by levodelellis »

Gud wrote: post #95
levodelellis wrote: post #93

It's not open source when you disallow people and companies from using it. One big difference between open source and public domain is that code in the public domain doesn't force anyone to redistribute the changes. I have had several projects where I didn't want to be forked, especially by a company with a marketing budget. I choose not to distribute it with an open source license. There's nothing wrong with that. C…

There are many open source licenses that don’t force redistribution of the code.

Correct, I'm saying public domain never requires that which is different from open source licenses, which may require it (and other stipulations)

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#103

Post by roenxi »

bloudermilk wrote: post #96
poopsmithe wrote: post #92

If you're having thoughts about who can and cannot use your free software, I think you're no longer interested in free software.

You’re not wrong, but arguments like this ignore the point. For many authors and maintainers, ‘free software’ and ‘open source’ as traditionally defined result in unsustainable outcomes. The original article cites articles explaining several such issues. Many people in the software industry are looking for new licensing models that take these systemic issues into account. It’s the ecosystem evolving to address curren…

> For many authors and maintainers, ‘free software’ and ‘open source’ as traditionally defined result in unsustainable outcomes.

I'm very grateful for all this free software, but if a maintainer doesn't think what they are doing is sustainable then they need to stop doing it. That isn't much of a revelation. And if people want to release software that can only be used by people on their ideological wavelength then they can do that, but:

- The projects are probably not going to find much popularity.

- In many ways it is a remarkably entitled position; after all my dishwashing machine doesn't test my moral purity before cleaning my dishes. Why should my software?

- Any ideology that centres on identifying "the bad guys" is too naive to hold a community together without becoming unbelievably corrupt and an insult to whatever ideals the original believers had.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#104

Post by cindyllm »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #83
WalterBright wrote: post #21

If you prevent licensing software to large corporations, small corporations won't use it, either, because small corporations may get acquired by large ones. Such a license would be a "poison pill". I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. We picked the Boost license for the D Language Foundation because it is the closest to public domain we could find. Besides, why would "bad guys" be deterred by a license, an…

Exactly. Unreasonable conditions imposed on everyone to "solve" an ideological or societal matter impose externalities on bystanders. It's religious fervor not backed by honest appreciation of human nature or reality. While I don't like end-uses that exploit or harm others, there is no meaningful magic spell that can police usage of code gifts apart from not giving away anything and micromanaging every single invocat…

[dead]

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#105

Post by gblargg »

smitty1e wrote: post #48

> Can we prevent Nazis from using our software? Short of engaging in equally authoritarian control-freakery? I don't see how. I'm amused by one package author that I'll leave unnamed who has a list on his site enumerating political parties around the world at one end of the political spectrum and announcing that supporters of these parties are disinvited to use his work. I'm all: "Dude, get over yourself. Parties ALL…

> Can we prevent Nazis from using our software?

Releasing it in the year 2025 is a pretty good guarantee of this, unless someone develops a time machine.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#106

Post by crabmusket »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #91
crabmusket wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't yet fully digested this comment, but I will say right off the bat that there are many co-ops in the developing world. Nathan Schneider in Everything for Everyone describes the culture shock of arriving in Nigeria (IIRC) and co-ops being everywhere, just such a normal part of life.

Sure, I think the point I'm trying to make is that second and third-order effects can be complex and unexpected when it comes to economics. For example, what if the dominance of co-ops in Nigeria is a contributor to economic stagnation? Do co-ops still count as "virtuous" if they're keeping a nation impoverished? Testing that hypothesis would be highly nontrivial, econometrics is hard. Trying to license your software…

Yes I don't disagree. I was using the income inequality statement as an example of what Thompson and Allworth might advise against. Software licensing might be at the wrong layer of the stack to have any impact on macroeconomics.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#108

Post by Towaway69 »

Is there something like the societal license where you can select different levels of harm: a) can be used to kill people b) can only be used to harm people c) can only be used for animal testing d) no harm should come to any living creature, neither in thought nor action.

Something like the creative commons license just for evil.

I like to use non enforceable license such as “don’t do evil” license because it causes meltdowns in the legal departments of large tech companies trying to define what is evil and whether they are committing evil.

Even if its not enforceable, at least it can trigger some kind of a reflection in folks and their interactions with society that supports their existence.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#109

Post by Towaway69 »

gblargg wrote: post #105
smitty1e wrote: post #48

> Can we prevent Nazis from using our software? Short of engaging in equally authoritarian control-freakery? I don't see how. I'm amused by one package author that I'll leave unnamed who has a list on his site enumerating political parties around the world at one end of the political spectrum and announcing that supporters of these parties are disinvited to use his work. I'm all: "Dude, get over yourself. Parties ALL…

> Can we prevent Nazis from using our software? Releasing it in the year 2025 is a pretty good guarantee of this, unless someone develops a time machine.

Errrr there is currently a worldwide upswing in nationalism. Oh that’s fine because it’s not Nazis but Neo-Nazis - the new kind.

Thankfully history doesn’t repeat itself.

Sorry for getting snarky.

Re: Stopping bad guys from using my open source project (feedback wanted)

#110

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

crabmusket wrote: post #106
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I think the point I'm trying to make is that second and third-order effects can be complex and unexpected when it comes to economics. For example, what if the dominance of co-ops in Nigeria is a contributor to economic stagnation? Do co-ops still count as "virtuous" if they're keeping a nation impoverished? Testing that hypothesis would be highly nontrivial, econometrics is hard. Trying to license your software…

Yes I don't disagree. I was using the income inequality statement as an example of what Thompson and Allworth might advise against . Software licensing might be at the wrong layer of the stack to have any impact on macroeconomics.

Fair.
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