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'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

theguardian.com

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Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#101

Post by mfuzzey »

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #82

I don’t understand the comments here crowing about how this employee-owned company is a success story against capitalism or something. It was going to go out of business, employees bought it, they also couldn’t make it profitable and had to resort to effectively a gofundme to not collapse. And somehow this is a win against profit driven companies? Do you not see how utterly non-viable this is at scale?

Well the initial financial problems were under a traditional profit driven scheme. Almost certainy they wouldn't have got the donations they are getting today if they had remained in that model so the employee-owned scheme is at least somewhat better. It is also likely that, in addiiton to donations, they are getting extra sales by being employee-owened, at least in France.

Ultimately though it's probably the whole market theey are in (relatively cheap household goods) that is difficult for a company based in a rich country, whatever their ownership model.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#102

Post by nicoburns »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #55
powerclue wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize there's an entire spectrum of socialist ideology between liberalism and authoritarian planned economies, yeah? It's not a Boolean, and it's not a slippery slope. We could have broadly liberal markets owned and run by the workers, and without the authoritarianism.

This is a slippery slope... The comment I replied to is an example of that: specifically on this aspect, it doesn't really matter whether a company is owned and run by the workers (we can have thay today and we do), but if it operates in a free market then it has to compete. Wishing that there wasn't competition is the slippery slope that ends badly, always. Obviously mandating workers-ownership is authoritarian in i…

It's not about eliminating competition. It's about trying to create an economic environment where companies are incentivized to compete by actually producing value rather than:

- Regulatory capture

- Buying out their competitors

- Being cheaper at the cost of horrible externalities

And the many other failure modes of "free markets".

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#103

Post by bojan »

cgearhart wrote: post #39

I have bought a lot of glassware over a couple decades. My usual trick is to look at restaurant supply shops, since they usually have a wide variety to select trade offs in style, price, quality, etc. Somehow I’d never come across Duralex until a few months ago when I was shopping to reorganize my own cupboards. The Duralex stuff I got has been the best glassware I’ve ever had, hands down. I’ll probably order more to…

I still use Duralex glassware I bought 15 years ago. The plastic lids are not in the best shape anymore, but they are still closing just fine.

Maybe I'm not that great a customer for the company.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#104

Post by oblio »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #48
sigmoid10 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a reason why worker owned companies (which were quite prevalent and a key factor in the 20th century's socialist movements) did not survive in our capitalist world. If we want to see these kinds of companies thrive, we need to change the entire market philosophy. Otherwise they will always be out-competed by companies that favour revenue/profit over worker benefits. In fact they will not even take off in the…

[flagged]

Are you honestly comparing their proposal to the USSR and the "proletarian dictatorship imposed at gun point" to democratically changing laws to force all companies to become worker owned cooperatives?

At the end of the day, if we had a million worker owned cooperatives, they would still need to compete. Since workers from Coop1 need to sell better products than workers from Coop2, otherwise they will still lose their jobs.

Also, the current setup is a race to the bottom: lowest quality that doesn't self destruct immediately (aka planned obsolescence), dumping ALL externalities onto the general public: ideally with the same timed fuse approach so that it's not noticed immediately (dumping toxic waste in rivers, polluting the earth and the air, oil spills, etc - the list is endless), all in the name of a slightly lower initial price to attract customers. It's not sustainable.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#105

Post by gedy »

anigbrowl wrote: post #81
throw-the-towel wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not only homes. I moved to France several months ago, and I keep seeing the Duralex mark in cafes, at my workplace, basically everywhere.

Sounds like their biggest problem is that the product is so good the domestic market may be saturated. I was pleased to read in the article that they're working to increase exports. I'm a big believer in products that are engineered to last rather than be regularly replaced.

I'd say it's more likely cheap imports that are the issue.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#106

Post by throw-the-towel »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #83
dimal wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Most large corporations I’ve dealt with are highly bureaucratic and resistant to change. Good ideas get lost in silos or bogged down in bureaucracy. Whether it works or not seems entirely dependent on whether the company has a moat around their revenue stream, which allows them to be inefficient everywhere else. For an employee owned co-op, a more anarchistic organization structure that allows for more employee…

If the employees have the power then decisions that are good for company but bad for the employees won't be made. Let's say that the company can't compete so the CEO proposes to automate production and lay off 50%+ of the employees, do you think employees will vote in favour? In general coops are not good at tough decisions and innovation. Duralex already went bankrupt several times and they are heading for it again.…

:s/employees/shareholders, and it still sounds true.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#107

Post by mytailorisrich »

anigbrowl wrote: post #89
mytailorisrich wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The whole article documents a product that people do want and like so much that they're willing to donate 4x what the owner-operators of the company asked for. It's odd to see you expressing disdain for 'high school politics' and 'because younger generations don't know' while also displaying such ignorance or disregard of the subject matter, like watching factual waves roll in and dash themselves on the rocks of obdu…

The article is about a failing company on the verge of bankruptcy and which already went bankrupt 4 times this century, with turnover down 20% over the last 10 years...

My reply was to a specific comment. I do express disdain for those who preach socialism in 2025 because, as an European who was alive during the 20th century and has some mileage I do know the subject matter... And everyone should, too because of the ample historical and economic record available for all to study. Hence, "youth" is the only generous 'excuse' as the debate was conclusively settled by the 1980s. Judging by the puerile reactions I will go with that... Please refrain from the typical ad hominem attacks and insults.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#108

Post by aaplok »

dimal wrote: post #100
mytailorisrich wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the employees have the power then decisions that are good for company but bad for the employees won't be made. Let's say that the company can't compete so the CEO proposes to automate production and lay off 50%+ of the employees, do you think employees will vote in favour? In general coops are not good at tough decisions and innovation. Duralex already went bankrupt several times and they are heading for it again.…

Were they a coop when they went bankrupt? According to the article, they only became a coop recently, so having a CEO capable of firing everyone didn’t work out for them. They took investors, who agreed to the rate of return on their investment. That doesn’t sound like charity. Now, your example of a CEO that wants to fire everyone assumes that that’s the right decision. How well has that kind of thinking worked for…

> Were they a coop when they went bankrupt?

They were not. In fact they went through series of mass-redundancy episodes that were supposed to save them from bankruptcy, soon followed by yet another bankruptcy.

The COOP might fail. Indeed the call for contributions discussed in the article was motivated by that risk. But it won't fail because it was a COOP, because every CEO who tried also failed to save it. The COOP structure is this company's last chance, literally.

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#109

Post by paradox460 »

Years ago I bought a bunch of duralex glasses, to replace my faded college IKEA plasticware. I still have every single one of them, and none are worse for wear. They've been dropped, survived several moves, and even toddlers, and are still going strong

Re: 'The French people want to save us': help pours in for glassmaker Duralex

#110

Post by cgearhart »

gniv wrote: post #69
cgearhart wrote: post #39

I have bought a lot of glassware over a couple decades. My usual trick is to look at restaurant supply shops, since they usually have a wide variety to select trade offs in style, price, quality, etc. Somehow I’d never come across Duralex until a few months ago when I was shopping to reorganize my own cupboards. The Duralex stuff I got has been the best glassware I’ve ever had, hands down. I’ll probably order more to…

> I get it—they’re expensive and so on—but they really are a superior product. Where are you? Here in France they are not expensive. I bought them at Carrefour when I moved here because I liked the Picardie shape and I thought they were just one of many companies that makes them. They were surprisingly cheap (a bit more than 1 euro per glass iirc).

I’m in the USA. I can drop into the local Target and pick up a set of 6 pint glasses for around $10. Meanwhile a set of 6 Picardie 500ml glasses is $48 at Williams-Sonoma. (A bit cheaper online.) Worth every penny so far.
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