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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#101

Post by [deleted] »

triceratops wrote: post #70
Aurornis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been his statement all over: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/02/nyregion/mamdani-schools-... The phase out starts with kindergarten and “early grades”. In some places he’s said up through second grade which some assume is an upper limit, but really it’s just the natural length of phasing out gifted programs one year at a time over the 4-year course of a mayoral term due to the necessary delays to eliminate the p…

Assuming he wants to eliminate all gifted programs because he said he wants to eliminate some of them is a type of ZDS. You also edited your earlier comment to say > You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you co…

[deleted]

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#102

Post by Aurornis »

triceratops wrote: post #70
Aurornis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s been his statement all over: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/02/nyregion/mamdani-schools-... The phase out starts with kindergarten and “early grades”. In some places he’s said up through second grade which some assume is an upper limit, but really it’s just the natural length of phasing out gifted programs one year at a time over the 4-year course of a mayoral term due to the necessary delays to eliminate the p…

Assuming he wants to eliminate all gifted programs because he said he wants to eliminate some of them is a type of ZDS. You also edited your earlier comment to say > You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you co…

> I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you could always get into the gifted program at the beginning of any school year if your teacher put you up for it. You didn't have to be in the program since kindergarten.

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

The gifted program for kindergarten will be eliminated in the first year of the phaseout.

The following year it will also be eliminated for first grade.

The following year it will be eliminated for second grade as well.

This is the phase out. Students who start in kindergarten next year won’t have the option of the gifted program because it will be eliminated for the following grade every year.

It doesn’t matter that they didn’t get into it in Kindergarten because it won’t exist in 1st grade when they get there, and so on.

It’s not “ZDS”. It’s literally what he’s said.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#103

Post by Aurornis »

jcranmer wrote: post #99
Aurornis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In other words, let’s drag the smart students down, disallow them a better education, and instead force them to teach their peers because we don’t think their teachers are doing a good job? This is a terrible way to solve a problem.

Honestly, nothing has done a better job of solidifying my understanding of a material than trying to explain it to other people. We should be giving students more opportunities to do this, not less.

That’s fallacious.

The students won’t get a chance to learn the advanced material by examining it to others because they won’t be allowed to learn the advanced material.

How do people not see the harms in banning advanced classes?

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#104

Post by Aurornis »

akramachamarei wrote: post #78
riskable wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a well-known effect where segregating kids into gifted VS non-gifted harms the education of the non-gifted while only having a marginal impact on the gifted: https://ncrge.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/982/2019/04... Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In the long term, having gifted programs results in a handful of accelerated s…

On the contrary, the study you cite found no significant effect either way for either group. From the last page: "we find that gifted grouping does not help or hurt the achievement growth of gifted students nor does it help or hurt the achievement growth of non-gifted students " (emphasis mine.) This certainly does not imply that separating gifted tracks results in a lot more struggling students.

Thank you! It’s perpetually frustrating that so many have come up with false ideas about gifted programs hurting other student.

Allowing advanced students to learn advanced topics should be an easy decision for everyone. It’s so strange that it’s become a contentious topic.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#105

Post by readthenotes1 »

general1465 wrote: post #82

What if USA would stop treating education like a business - customer paid for degree, customer gets the degree no matter if customer has essential knowledge for the degree?

Thats close to what I was going to say: the answer to the prompt in the headline is clearly "don't admit them to college".

But since there is a massive profit motive to admit and keep young fools taking on student loans, I doubt that's the answer the industry would adopt

Or as Munger said "show me the incentive and I'll show you the behavior"

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#106

Post by triceratops »

Aurornis wrote: post #102
triceratops wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming he wants to eliminate all gifted programs because he said he wants to eliminate some of them is a type of ZDS. You also edited your earlier comment to say > You disallow it for new kindergarten students one season, then next year remove it from 1st grade so they can’t go into accelerated programs and so on I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you co…

> I don't know how it works in NYC now, but it doesn't have to be like that. When I went to school you could always get into the gifted program at the beginning of any school year if your teacher put you up for it. You didn't have to be in the program since kindergarten. Sorry, I should have been more clear. The gifted program for kindergarten will be eliminated in the first year of the phaseout. The following year i…

> and so on.

Up to what grade though? The article you provided says Mamdani supports gifted programs starting in the 3rd grade. That's different from your original assertion that he's "[phasing out] gifted education programs", implying that they would end completely for everyone.

My original understanding was it was kindergarten only and that was inaccurate. He's following a plan proposed by de Blasio, which I didn't know about, that's phasing it out up to the 2nd grade. Extrapolating from that to "Mamdani will remove all gifted education" is the ZDS I'm referring to.

I agree with you overall about the value of gifted programs. But it's important to not spiral into hyperbole.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#107

Post by alexb_ »

nohuck13 wrote: post #76

The UCSD report shows some of the questions they asked incoming students. 39% got this right: Round the number 374518 to the nearest 100 34% got this right: Find 13/16 ÷ 2. 2% got this right: If a=-2 and b=-3, evaluate ab² - a/b https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... page 49

To clarify, these are percentages for the sample of students taking the remedial Math 2 class, not generally. Two percent is still crazy low though, that's practically nothing.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#108

Post by jcranmer »

Aurornis wrote: post #103
jcranmer wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, nothing has done a better job of solidifying my understanding of a material than trying to explain it to other people. We should be giving students more opportunities to do this, not less.

That’s fallacious. The students won’t get a chance to learn the advanced material by examining it to others because they won’t be allowed to learn the advanced material. How do people not see the harms in banning advanced classes?

You're presupposing that the only possible way to provide enrichment is by tracking people into advanced classes.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#109

Post by triceratops »

jcranmer wrote: post #99
Aurornis wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In other words, let’s drag the smart students down, disallow them a better education, and instead force them to teach their peers because we don’t think their teachers are doing a good job? This is a terrible way to solve a problem.

Honestly, nothing has done a better job of solidifying my understanding of a material than trying to explain it to other people. We should be giving students more opportunities to do this, not less.

How does giving some students AP classes take away their opportunity to tutor other classmates? Do they not have friends in the non-gifted track?

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#110

Post by xphos »

Aurornis wrote: post #80
corpMaverick wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO. It is futile to level the field with the wealthy. They will always have the better opportunities, education, connections, etc. They will find a way. But we should keep trying to give more opportunities to the less fortunate. Better education, remedial classes, free school lunches, child credits, etc. We do that by asking the wealthy to contribute more. Not by taking away their advantages.(e.g. Admission tests)

> Not by taking away their advantages.(e.g. Admission tests) Admissions tests are actually not as big of a driver for the academic advantage of the wealthy. Especially at flagship institutions a lot of it is simply traced back to legacy admissions, athletics, and extra-curricular activities. Those latter two are more gamed by the wealthy than anything. Removing admission tests and focusing only on the application is…

I never thought about the ease at which you can game non-academic aspects. I agree that testing is probabamtic because a good tutor can boost peoples performance signficantly but there feels like a limit to actually just learning the material. Useful evalation metrics of people are notoriously difficult
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