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This is Not ok

blog.jessitron.com

101–110 of 165 posts

Re: This is Not ok

#101

People always complain that there aren't enough women in tech fields, yet no one ever complains about there not being enough men in, say, fashion. I've always found this odd.

I've heard complaints about the lack of men in nursing, education and day care.

In education & day care, the complaint usually centers around the lack of role models for children.

In nursing, it's usually related to the anecdotal observation that male nurses are almost always good nurses.

As for fashion, males seem to be quite prominent already.

Re: This is Not ok

#102
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many fashion publications and forums do you read a day?

Two. The consensus among fashion industry veterans seems to be that if a guy wants to work in the fashion industry, he must be gay or at least bisexual.

Or affect being gay. I understand that's quite commonplace.

Re: This is Not ok

#103
post #26

>That day in the Family Restroom I threw a fit. Hurled my water bottle at the wall and screamed, "This is not OK!" Oh please, calm down. Closed the tab.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/27/cameron-... Women (and other humans) are allowed to be angry about both perceived and actual injustice. TFA isn't even an actual emotional outburst. It's a reasoned account of something happened to the author.

Sometimes calming down is an appropriate response to the situation at hand, though.

Re: This is Not ok

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think she has a problem with the fact that men got 92% of the bathroom facilities. Especially when it was logically justified. I just think she was disillusioned by the fact that there were so few woman at the conference that a decision like that could be justified.

Honest question, Are people concern because there are not enough afro-americans/hispanics/etc in the software industry?

Honest answer, you're derailing.

Re: This is Not ok

#105
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example from the article: at a conference, the audience thought the author is a recruiter because she's a woman.

I don't really see how that is a barrier to entry.

You're not going to get hired if people think you're not there to get hired.

Re: This is Not ok

#106
Empathy, noun: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

I think this is our[1] problem. Or a generalization of it: the ability to share another's viewpoint. To step into their perspective and say “oh. I see.” And to accept that maybe, just maybe, their viewpoint is valid. This isn't always true, by the way. But it is sometimes true, even often true. And even if it is valid, you may not agree with it.

But here's the thing. There's this idea that maybe women aren't in tech because they aren't interested. That's cool. I'm not interested in nursing, right?

Well it turns out, I've never done nursing. I haven't even looked into it. I haven't talked to anyone about it. Because I just assumed hey, I'm a guy, nurses aren't guys. Not even worth thinking about. That's the mindset. It's not that you know you're not interested, it's that you don't even give it a second thought! [2]

The funny thing is, people here have generally found their passion—be it startups or tech. And when you have your passion and it fell into your lap, it's easy to say “well these people who aren't interested shouldn't be doing this anyway, because they're not passionate”. Even if they had no chance to develop that passion? Even if there was no exposure? Maybe we're being a tad too dismissive here, no? Perhaps we should give people a chance to explore a subject before assuming they'll never be passionate about it. Just a though.

What about those who did reach that passion? Those who entered the tech world, found a minefield of sexism (of which that's-what-she-said jokes are just the very very tip of the iceberg, but more on that in a second), and said “screw it, I'm out of here”.[3] Usually those stories lead to another set of excuses, because the first set of excuses just weren't effective enough to deal with the full scope of the people being shut out of technology, willingly or not.

Let's talk about that's-what-she-said jokes. There are men who say “psh, seriously? Come on, it's just a joke! Why would you have a problem with that?” And there are women who say “well, I can take them. Not only that, I dish them out! Why would you have a problem with that?” Why would you have a problem with that? The trouble with that question is it's so often rhetorical. Not only do you not reaaally want to hear the answer to it, but you don't stop to think about the answer before asking. That kind of question should lead to more understanding.

So I propose, without further ado, that instead of trying to understand why something (anything!) is a problem from your point of view, you consider trying to understand why it's a problem from the other person's point of view, and if, with a little effort, you still can't figure it out, then you ask and look for a real answer. And read the answer. And try to understand then. Because I see far more effort devoted in most of these threads to defending one's own point of view than to understanding the other person's. And these questions, the question of women in tech, the question of social awkwardness, the question of sexism in tech, they are not math problems. There is not necessarily a single correct answer. One person being right doesn't mean the other person is wrong. And right vs wrong is not always immediately obvious.

[1] - when I say our, I mean the tech industry.

[2] - I can't speak to whether or not this is considered a problem in the nursing industry. It's irrelevant to the point at hand.

[3] - http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/

Re: This is Not ok

#107
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the barriers exactly? Programming is about most gender-agnostic industries there are: there's no heavy lifting of anything (except figuratively speaking) and you don't need to deal with that many people so it doesn't basically matter if you're a man, woman, or an alien. It certainly is that programming isn't for everyone, men included, and the current bias seems to signal that significantly more men are inte…

It appears that the traditional male superiority in logic and math can be traced almost completely to two things: - the tendency of people to assume that boys are better at math, encouraging boys and discouraging girls - the tendency for people to encourage young boys to play with spatial & logic toys such as Lego and for girls to play with dolls

[deleted]

Re: This is Not ok

#108
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to have exact same gender ratios in the tech industry. There are women out there who would make great programmers / sysadmins / etc, but never finish the process of becoming one, are dissuaded from ever starting, or flat-out quit the industry after N number of years, simply because of the barriers put in place by men assuming that the field is only for men.

What are the barriers exactly? Programming is about most gender-agnostic industries there are: there's no heavy lifting of anything (except figuratively speaking) and you don't need to deal with that many people so it doesn't basically matter if you're a man, woman, or an alien. It certainly is that programming isn't for everyone, men included, and the current bias seems to signal that significantly more men are inte…

What are the barriers exactly?

The heavy use of logic is a masculine trait ...

OK, this is Poe's Law territory. You're trolling us, right? Because otherwise you just wondered aloud what possible barriers there could be to women joining our field and then exposed yourself as one of them.

Re: This is Not ok

#109
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the barriers exactly? The pervading attitude of The heavy use of logic is a masculine trait is a rather good example of at least one barrier. Do you not see how that statement is extremely problematic?

What he is saying is that although that's the assumption, programming ability can be quantified such that the assumption becomes irrelevant.

There is no way to make that assumption irrelevant. In absolutely no way is programming a perfect meritocracy, and social factors come into play just as much as any field. If the pervading attitude is "men are inherently better at this task," why would a woman want to enter the field?

Besides, if programming ability could be accurately quantified, there wouldn't be a constant stream of articles on how difficult it is to separate the wheat from the chaff when hiring.

Re: This is Not ok

#110
post #81

> That day in the Family Restroom I threw a fit. Hurled my water bottle at the wall and screamed, "This is not OK!" What? I can understand being frustrated but that reaction doesn't seem constructive at all.

It was constructive because she then to do something constructive about it. Compare and contrast to the story about John Orwant throwing his mug at a wall at a Perl conference - and single handedly inspiring the start of the Perl 6 project. But then that's ok. He's a guy.

>But then that's ok. He's a guy.

Yeah that was obviously the implication. A guy tossing a fit in the bathroom would be just as randomly nonconstructive.

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