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Dark Pattern Games

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Re: Dark Pattern Games

#101

Post by 1718627440 »

amne wrote: post #86
joaohaas wrote: post #47

Overall it feels like unless your game is a linear single-player game, it will fall under multiple of the site's labelled 'dark patterns'. Here are some really bad ones: Infinite Treadmill - Impossible to win or complete the game. Variable Rewards - Unpredictable or random rewards are more addictive than a predictable schedule. Can't Pause or Save - The game does not allow you to stop playing whenever you want. Grind…

Chess: - infinite treadmill: theoretically you can play all possible moves but not in a lifetime. - variable rewards: sometimes you stumble upon (or try) a tactic that works. - can't pause or save: except when you maybe play against a computer which is not the point of the game - grinding: you need to play the same openings many many times to encounter all the responses that will let you know if your "build" is worth…

> - can't pause or save: except when you maybe play against a computer which is not the point of the game

Famous games span multiple years or decades and are also done across continents over a phone line. Chess is very pausable.

> - grinding: you need to play the same openings many many times to encounter all the responses that will let you know if your "build" is worthy

You can start from a given state to try things out. You can even start from non-reachable states if you want to.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#103

Post by symbogra »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #85
symbogra wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for doing this! Years of grinding in Diablo 2 and reading about the psychology of intermittent rewards has made me able to see through any game with a grinding mechanic and not play it. So naming and explaining the dark pattern can help.

You mean the new diablo 2 right? I doubt the original Diablo 2 grinding was money-earning focused. I mean the old games (as they appeared to me) were focused on "do it, sell it, make people fall in love with it while we prepare the new game". The new games are more like "make people hooked on it, while we prepare another DLC" - I've never played the new Diablo 2 so I am asking. However I used to grind Diablo 1 (and s…

I didn't know there was a new diablo 2? I mean the original one from two decades ago. I agree its not bad compared to modern games since the grinding just wasted your time rather than money (there was a secondary market for items that was worth some money but you didn't need to participate). I feel like it was one of the prototypical games of this kind of grind.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#104

Post by zombot »

offsky wrote: post #75

It’s always shocking to see one of my sites pop up on HN. For context around my motivation to make the site. I was really addicted to a certain mobile game to the point that it was affecting my work and family life. I stumbled upon an article about how game companies hire psychologists to make the games more addicting. This led me down a rabbit hole of researching dark patterns. It was very eye opening and by learnin…

It's a great site! The list of Healthy Games is a fantastic filter on the cesspool that is the iOS App Store. I would never have found Wilderless, for instance, just by browsing the store.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#105

Post by dkh »

timeon wrote: post #95

These apply also for gamified non-games. Duolingo is prime example.

I give things like Duolingo a pass because it’s not trying to trick me into doing something they want me to do but I don’t want to do. It’s trying to gamify something that I do genuinely want to do (learn/practice a language) but haven’t had the discipline or plan in place.

Just like how there are apps that gamify getting through tasks, gamify chores, etc. They aren’t really dark patterns in this context.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#106

Post by vintermann »

Bratmon wrote: post #91
vintermann wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The site says: "People like a challenge and playing against other people is often how games provide this challenge. Competition by itself is not necessarily a dark pattern. Classic games like chess and checkers, and most sports have competition. It's when competition is combined with other dark patterns that problems arise." And this is true. In particular, competition where you gain rewards for staying on top of lea…

The person who wrote that text and the person that coded the website need to get relationship counseling; every page on the website except that paragraph treat competition as one more bad point ok the bad points scale.

It's all too common to make a taxonomy of potential problems and then when deciding how to sum it up just throw up your hands and say each potential problem is worth one point.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#107

Post by CamouflagedKiwi »

symbogra wrote: post #103
p0w3n3d wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the new diablo 2 right? I doubt the original Diablo 2 grinding was money-earning focused. I mean the old games (as they appeared to me) were focused on "do it, sell it, make people fall in love with it while we prepare the new game". The new games are more like "make people hooked on it, while we prepare another DLC" - I've never played the new Diablo 2 so I am asking. However I used to grind Diablo 1 (and s…

I didn't know there was a new diablo 2? I mean the original one from two decades ago. I agree its not bad compared to modern games since the grinding just wasted your time rather than money (there was a secondary market for items that was worth some money but you didn't need to participate). I feel like it was one of the prototypical games of this kind of grind.

There's a remastered version - Diablo 2 Resurrected. It's very similar, with some QoL changes but mostly it's the same game, so of course the same grind.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#108

Post by slightwinder »

joaohaas wrote: post #47

Overall it feels like unless your game is a linear single-player game, it will fall under multiple of the site's labelled 'dark patterns'. Here are some really bad ones: Infinite Treadmill - Impossible to win or complete the game. Variable Rewards - Unpredictable or random rewards are more addictive than a predictable schedule. Can't Pause or Save - The game does not allow you to stop playing whenever you want. Grind…

Yes, this site reads like it's written by someone not enjoying games and understanding the concept of gaming. There is nothing dark about most of these concepts individually. The harm comes from combination and/or excessive usage. The dose makes the poison.

Though, learning them and being aware of them is not bad. But I'm curious how much the phrasing pushes the mindset of the readers in the wrong direction.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#109

Post by ljm »

symbogra wrote: post #80
offsky wrote: post #75

It’s always shocking to see one of my sites pop up on HN. For context around my motivation to make the site. I was really addicted to a certain mobile game to the point that it was affecting my work and family life. I stumbled upon an article about how game companies hire psychologists to make the games more addicting. This led me down a rabbit hole of researching dark patterns. It was very eye opening and by learnin…

Thanks for doing this! Years of grinding in Diablo 2 and reading about the psychology of intermittent rewards has made me able to see through any game with a grinding mechanic and not play it. So naming and explaining the dark pattern can help.

I don't think anything has pushed me towards low-key single player indie gaming more than the industry's relentless endeavour to blur the lines between gaming and gambling.

Multiplayer? I loved the asymmetrical co-op ones like It Takes Two, The Past Within, Tick Tock: A Tale For Two.

Give me an experience that is thoughtful and enjoyable over one that is intended to frustrate any day. The Seance of Black Manor, The Return of the Obra Dinn, The Outer Wilds, Star of Providence, Disco Elysium, etc. etc.

Re: Dark Pattern Games

#110

Post by ThatPlayer »

parineum wrote: post #78
p1necone wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that, but some of the games that people point at as having harmful monetization have basically the same system of only selling cosmetic items that don't give you an advantage (e.g. Fortnite). And PoE's stash tabs straddle that line a bit. As far as I can tell the main difference is a younger demographic and being more pop culture adjacent. I don't think that should affect whether you consider it "bad" monetiz…

> And PoE's stash tabs straddle that line a bit. They don't straddle any lines, they're well beyond it. Stash tabs are de facto required for trade. One can, technically, play without trade and complete all the game content but the ones actually capable of that are putting in tons of hours and they will definitely use extra stash space. There isn't really a target player that plays POE for free aside from those that a…

Yeah, late game without a currency tab just sounds terrible. Probably spend more time organizing stash than actually mapping.
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