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Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

aethermug.com

101–110 of 130 posts

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#101

This article assumes that concepts are somehow precise coordinates within a single language; that's not the case, at best, speakers of a language mutually approximate a relatively consistent representation, but like, look at a word like yeet or whatever: we decided as a society on its meaning while it was being developed, as it were. Furthermore, it never rigorously defines what it means by translation. It claims 上京…

Well said! To add on: if meaning is largely not "in" the words themselves, but embedded in a shared cognitive space, then in order to have a truly singular (ie "untranslatable") basis point would require positing unique cognitive mechanisms or some experiential quality that is unknown to members of the target language. But as you pointed out, most concepts do have an analogous representation in most languages, even if the tokens in use appear superficially different. And this is merely because the context in this case is a shared cognitive substrate (the low-level operating system, if you will) consisting of sense data, emotions, and so on, which in its fundamental operations does not substantially differ between members of the human race - or so I would argue. In either case, what matters seems to me to be not so much the actual tokens but the experiences or cognitive context in which they are embedded.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#102
post #5

The article seems to think that a word is untranslateable if there is no single word in the target language. If I'm not misreading the article, then this is completely obvious -- just consider the number of words in English and the number of words in almost any other language, and you will find that there are more English words than the other language. It is now clear that there exist English words that don't corresp…

> and you will find that there are more English words than the other language. It is now clear that there exist English words that don't correspond to a single word in the other language. You're forgetting about synonyms. The common adage that English has the largest vocabulary stems from the fact that it often has multiple words for the same thing. Sofa, couch. Autumn, fall. Etc etc. Other languages generally don't…

Sofa and couch are only interchangeable in some contexts. They are different “flavors” of similar ideas.

This becomes immediately apparent (and relevant) when writing fiction or poetry. At least it does to me.

Non-fiction and spoken English do not highlight the subtleties between these words because using them interchangeably in the same work is considered bad form.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#103
上京 jōkyō is less a regular word and more a form of written shorthand. It would not be used in speech, and even in writing it's ambiguous: not only does 京 kyō simply mean "capital", but there's a district of Kyoto that's also 上京, only read Kamigyō.

The closest English equivalent is abbreviations like "PC". They're perfectly usable in context, but if you see one standing alone it's not clear if it's personal computer, politically correct, Peace Corps, etc etc.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is now clear that there exist English words that don't correspond to a single word in the other language. But that's true of any language. Not only that, but English uses loanwords heavily which are often Anglicisations of words from other languages, which may not in themselves be just one word. "Ho ho ho", the flag-waving Little Englander types say, "Gaelic is such a stupid language, they don't even have a word…

Your comment is silly, but I can play along. English people will say something like: Germans have a word for everything. Many of which are just sentences with the spaces removed. Australia’s have a lot of those too, or worse: our speech is often nothing but a handful of vowels and a swarm of apostrophes.

Now here's where it gets interesting: there is no agreed-upon definition among experts what a word is. So there's no point in arguing about it if the thing we're arguing about doesn't even have a rigorous definition.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#105
post #24

There is a better thesis coming from the late philosopher W.V.O Quine: indeterminacy of translation [1] [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quine/#IndeTran

Ctrl+F: Quine

That indeterminacy of translation isn’t mentioned is a huge shortcoming of this article.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#106
post #56
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that one case, yeah; I don't think they're going for anything more than general illustration here.

But what does that illustrate?

Like, what a matrix looks like? Seems fine.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#107
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that one case, yeah; I don't think they're going for anything more than general illustration here.

The text that follows does take on a new meaning though, for those that know linear algebra: If the mere sight of the above is like a punch in the face for you, don't worry. Almost makes me wonder if it was intentional.

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica!

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#108
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is silly, but I can play along. English people will say something like: Germans have a word for everything. Many of which are just sentences with the spaces removed. Australia’s have a lot of those too, or worse: our speech is often nothing but a handful of vowels and a swarm of apostrophes.

Now here's where it gets interesting: there is no agreed-upon definition among experts what a word is. So there's no point in arguing about it if the thing we're arguing about doesn't even have a rigorous definition.

Enter: the morpheme

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a difference in orthography. English could easily have had an orthographic standard where we write "compoundnoun" for compounds. This is in contrast with a language like French, where compound nouns are relatively rare. Compare English "Olive oil" and German "Olivenöl" with French "huile d' olive". In French you need to have a preposition to combine the two nouns, whereas English and German do noun-noun c…

You are right but neither yours nor those of the previous posters are good examples of compound nouns. These examples have just the meanings of a noun + adjective or of a noun + noun in genitive case, where some languages are lazier than others and omit the markers of case or of adjectival derivation from noun, which are needed in more strict languages. There are also other kinds of compound nouns, where the compound…

> There are also other kinds of compound nouns, where the compound noun does not have the meaning of its component words

Wouldn't cranberry morphemes be good examples this type of relationship? I don't know if, in the eponymous example, the cran- being bound precludes it from being counted as a closed compound word or not though.

Re: Linear algebra explains why some words are effectively untranslatable

#110
> a gentle, poignant sadness or pathos felt in response to the transient nature of all things, a deep awareness of their impermanence that evokes a subtle, bittersweet sorrow and a profound, quiet empathy for their passing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade ?

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