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GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

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Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#101

Post by szszrk »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #98
szszrk wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to argue on semantics. Currently you can't start a graphical session completely remotely using any protocol (RDP, VNC, no machine, whatever).

I don't use GNOME, or GDM, or RDP, but isn't https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-remote-desktop#headless... describing that? > GNOME Remote Desktop supports integrating with the GNOME Display Manager (GDM) to achieve remote login functionality. This feature is only available via the RDP protocol. It works by the remote user first authenticating via a system wide password, which gives access to the graphical login sc…

Have you actually tried setting it up on Wayland yourself?

Please do.

I've seen too many threads like this based on a hunch and docs, while it just doesn't work.

I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#102

Post by tsoukase »

Sweepi wrote: post #62
szszrk wrote: post #30

Transition to Wayland opened so many user experience regressions. Many are solved today, or at least partially solved but... There is still no possibility to have proper remote sessions when using Wayland. On any Window Manager and any distro. It's such a shitshow when you go into details. Nothing works, including third party tools (like NoMachine) and I could find no real hope for actual solutions being designed. Th…

The "Transition to Wayland" from a user experience pov is the slowest car crash of all time. We are like 1.5 DECADES in at this point. I have a simple application written in QT6. It works on Windows, macOS, and X11/Linux. On Wayland/Linux, applications cannot move their own windows anymore, because "security". Good luck finding this in the QT documentation, it is there, but only at 3/dozens of places were it would be…

There are slower ones, like IPv4 to IPv6 transition. Jokes aside, in Linux any transition happens instant or never.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#103

Post by wakawaka28 »

vidarh wrote: post #72
saturn_vk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the display server have to restore window positions?

If you want that feature, then the display server doesn't need to be the one to support it when the display server lets applications obtain and control window positions. Wayland doesn't let you do that, and it's a deliberate choice. See e.g.: https://wayland-book.com/xdg-shell-in-depth/interactive.html "However, a deliberate design trait of Wayland makes application windows ignorant of their exact placement on screen…

We know it's a deliberate choice. It's just wrong.

>This decision affords Wayland compositors a greater deal of flexibility — windows could be shown in several places at once, arranged in the 3D space of a VR scene, or presented in any other novel way. Wayland is designed to be generic and widely applicable to many devices and form factors.

Do ANY of these other features work? Furthermore, all our applications are built basically as 2D grids of pixels. What click position do you get if you render the same window in some "novel" way like in two places at once? I don't especially care if any of their space-age bullshit works. It NEEDS to work for the apps we have, which are just pixel arrays. Many users have been ranting about this issue for years and all we get in response from Wayland wackos is basically "live with it!" Nobody has realized any actual benefits in functionality from switching to Wayland. Maybe some graphics nerds with weird monitor setups are geeking out about fractional pixel coordinates and multiple refresh rates. The rest of us are just dealing with issues for no benefit.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#104

Post by wakawaka28 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #94

I love Linux and vastly prefer it to Windows, but whenever people tell me Linux is vastly more stable than Windows, I think of the whol X11/Wayland saga. I still scarcely know what these are. In fact I actively don't want to know about compositors and whatnot. When I want GUIs, I just want to see them. I can list many crappinesses of Windows, but stuff like this kinda just works.

Linux is extremely stable. There are some exploits for it, but generally you are very unlikely to accidentally get a virus on it. If you don't update your software, it could potentially run for YEARS without a reboot on Linux. Maybe that is possible on Windows but I have yet to see it really.

If you mean API/ABI stability, the question is far more nuanced. I think most Linux software you are likely to use will run on any Linux distro equally well, although you may require it to be rebuilt for your particular distro. In the worst case there is always Docker. Statically linked programs can work for a VERY long time across distros. Microsoft probably has a bigger commitment to backward compatibility right now, but Linux binary software can be carried forward for many years as well with few/no changes. The Wayland thing is going to upset this stability, but in theory XWayland should make the old stuff keep working.

Most popular distros on common hardware "just work" these days and can be used easily by normal people. You might be confused if you tried to migrate a binary executable forward or between distros and it didn't work, but it is mostly developers and admins who think about such things.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#105

Post by nmstoker »

ginalloa wrote: post #97
killerstorm wrote: post #25

I've been using Gnome for years, but, honestly, it just isn't good: seems like it's optimized for very basic use. Something as simple as adding launcher to a panel now requires an extension. Also Wayland has some problem on my system (Thinkpad / Intel Xe) where it randomly just goes slow, this makes it an easy choice to try things other than Gnome.

As discussed earlier on HN, KDE these days has been the most usable desktop for many users. It is mostly stable, feature rich and can be customized easily.

Yes, fuly agree. And enough time has passed with it being robust and performant that the old bores who used to go on about KDE performance have finally given up bleeting on about that.

I wouldn't bash GNOME as clearly plenty of work goes into it and having two decent DE is good for the ecosystem, but for me GNOME never struck a chord compared to the elegance of KDE - it just feels like the Duplo version compared to KDE

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#106

Post by sunshine-o »

One of the big problem I am/was facing with Wayland is the performance when accessing a VM with SPICE and virt-viewer. You basically had to use X11 on the host and the guest for everything to work in an optimal way.

Do anybody knows if any progress have been made on this front?

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#107

Post by freehorse »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #61
benterix wrote: post #53

What a strange title. X11 is still more popular than Gnome, and formulating a wish like a fact doesn't make it so.

Anecdotally, I strongly doubt this is true, although my environment is probably quite biased. I know a ton of people who use Gnome, some who use KDE, and I think roughly all of these people use them with Wayland. The standalone-WM users I know are also mostly on Sway or other Wayland ones. The only real X11 holdouts seem to be people using X11-only DE's, such as Xfce or Cinnamon.

Pretty much possible to use gnome and x11 (until now).

Personally I have given up with wayland as in years ago. There will always be something I should not have wanted to do in the first place while using wayland. I would rather use x11 and have much better control.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#108

Post by accelbred »

szszrk wrote: post #101
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use GNOME, or GDM, or RDP, but isn't https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-remote-desktop#headless... describing that? > GNOME Remote Desktop supports integrating with the GNOME Display Manager (GDM) to achieve remote login functionality. This feature is only available via the RDP protocol. It works by the remote user first authenticating via a system wide password, which gives access to the graphical login sc…

Have you actually tried setting it up on Wayland yourself? Please do. I've seen too many threads like this based on a hunch and docs, while it just doesn't work. I'll be more than happy to be proven wrong.

I've used it. It works fine. You connect with RDP, get a gdm login screen, and can log in.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#109

Post by InvertedRhodium »

ColonelPhantom wrote: post #31
irthomasthomas wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And wayland is in broken mode. KDE keep changing the default back to wayland after each update, and every time my linux systems are broken until I switch back to x11.

What is broken for you? At this point, starting from roughly KDE 6, Wayland has been pretty much flawless for me. KDE 5.27 was pretty much fine already as well.

Fractional scaling is awful on Wayland if the application relies on XWayland to work. Drives me up the wall having to find the various flags to force Wayland mode.

Re: GNOME 50 completes the migration to Wayland, dropping X11 backend code

#110

Post by Ferret7446 »

vidarh wrote: post #72
saturn_vk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the display server have to restore window positions?

If you want that feature, then the display server doesn't need to be the one to support it when the display server lets applications obtain and control window positions. Wayland doesn't let you do that, and it's a deliberate choice. See e.g.: https://wayland-book.com/xdg-shell-in-depth/interactive.html "However, a deliberate design trait of Wayland makes application windows ignorant of their exact placement on screen…

Wayland deliberately chose to break user workflows. Is it any surprise that users resent Wayland?
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