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When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

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Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#101

Post by weirdindiankid »

terminalshort wrote: post #72
weirdindiankid wrote: post #9

I’m still perplexed by the utter lack of regulatory action in both the U.S. and Canada with FSD. Its inconsistency and Tesla’s “seat of the pants” approach to safety have gotten enough people injured to where I’d have expected someone to take notice by now. Don’t get me wrong, when it works, it’s amazing but there’s no way to reliably establish that it works on the same route twice.

Show me actual stats on the safety vs human drivers and I may actually care. The lack of them makes me think that it isn't actually that dangerous compared to humans.

Agreed. Unfortunately, Tesla’s quite cagey with publishing safety data, far as I can tell. For what it’s worth, both HW4 and HW3 with FSD 13.x and 12.x have put me in dangerous situations enough times to where I no longer trust it.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#102

Post by dawnerd »

jmuguy wrote: post #38
paulbjensen wrote: post #4

One reason I wouldn't trust Tesla's FSD: Sun glare: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1huzgtu/tesla_fsd... Drivers have tackled this problem by wearing polaroid sunglasses. I really hope someone asks Tesla how they plan to solve the Sun glare issue.

I'm sure they'll figure this out right around the time they test the cars in places that have more than one season.

They don’t even work well in California. Driving into sun? Car loses all lane visibility and yells at you. Driving late at night? Can’t detect lanes and complains about blinded cameras.

If only there was some kinda technology that didn’t rely on optics that could see in pitch dark or when the sun is shining.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#103

Post by dawnerd »

simondotau wrote: post #11
paulbjensen wrote: post #4

One reason I wouldn't trust Tesla's FSD: Sun glare: https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaFSD/comments/1huzgtu/tesla_fsd... Drivers have tackled this problem by wearing polaroid sunglasses. I really hope someone asks Tesla how they plan to solve the Sun glare issue.

According to users, that issue appears to be solved as of FSD v13. The solution may be reliant on the higher quality camera modules shipped with hardware 4.

I have hw4. Not fixed.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#104

Post by dzhiurgis »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #100
dzhiurgis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of making cars for real people that love cars. Whoosh. They've been saying Tesla is an AI company for nearly a decade. AI has been propping up entire US economy for last few years. EV bandwagon has left long time ago. Saying all that I wouldn't mind even cheaper Tesla - small screen, 1 camera instead of 11, fully offline, fully stainless steel, fully open source - basically minimally tech and maximally main…

> Saying all that I wouldn't mind even cheaper Tesla - small screen, 1 camera instead of 11, fully offline, fully stainless steel, fully open source - basically minimally tech and maximally maintainable and maximum longevity. What you describe would probably cost more money, not less. The market is small and analog tech is actually more expensive to produce with than digital tech.

I said nothing about analog.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#105

Post by cyberax »

torginus wrote: post #91
Animats wrote: post #10

As time goes on, Tesla's fiasco becomes more and more embarrassing. Waymos are all over the place in the cities they serve, doing pretty much what they're supposed to do. Nuro has some fully autonomous vehicles running around. Baidu's Apollo Go is deployed in 16 cities in China, although they use remote driving as a backup. Tesla, though, is still hyping a technology that seems to have maxed out years ago.

I just had a thought - a Waymo car costs $200k (maybe more) from a quick google search. YoY returns of $200k on S&P are about 10%, while an Uber driver takes home about $40-$50k - so in terms of cost, they are about 2x-2.5x of each other, with the Waymore likely needing expensive maintenance/support infrastructure, bringing the total much closer. Which means if Tesla can really build that Cybercab - with an underpowe…

Waymo cars are basically priceless at this point. As in: the car cost doesn't matter. They've so far spent multiple times their fleet's costs on R&D. The fact that they're getting some pocket cash from paid fares is inconsequential for their bottom line.

Any realistic mass deployment will use cheaper cars, more suitable for taxi service.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#106

Post by cyberax »

terminalshort wrote: post #87
buran77 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Novelty is enough to look like "shockingly good". You were comparing "no self driving" to "some self driving". A jump from 0 to something always seems big. Standard driver assists were also impressive when they appeared on cars. In the meantime Tesla still makes a lot of claims about safety but doesn't trust the FSD enough to publish transparent, verifiable stats. That speaks louder than any of our anecdotes. > You a…

> Every single person I know driving a Tesla told me the FSD (not AP) is bad I really don't believe this because everyone I know who drives a Tesla tells me the opposite. I tend to think this is an artifact of people who just irrationally hate Tesla because IRL every negative thing I hear about Teslas comes from people who don't own the cars and hate Elon Musk. > they would never trust it to drive without very carefu…

> I really don't believe this because everyone I know who drives a Tesla tells me the opposite.

I mean, I love my Tesla autopilot. It made my cross-country trips so much more enjoyable. I have several thousand hours on autopilot at this point.

That being said, I don't use it on regular city streets. Because it's just bad, in all kinds of ways. "Full self-driving" it is not.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#107

Post by bastawhiz »

vessenes wrote: post #42
bastawhiz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine it doing fine on highways for a thousand miles. FSD has literally never managed to complete a trip involving city driving for me without disengaging or me having to stop it from doing something illegal. I'm not sure how many attempts I'm supposed to give it. Hell, autopilot doesn't even manage to consistently stay safely in a lane on I-40 between Durham and Asheville.

have you tried fsd 13/14 yet? I just upgraded to 13 from 12 and it's a massssive improvement. Not sure what 14 s like. It's definitely added a 9 in the last year.

I tried 12 and 13. My car hasn't gotten 14 and I'm not interested in finding out if it'll get it, because at this point I'm simply not interested even if it's decent.

And there's no guarantee it'll be meaningfully better, if I'm being honest. Why would I believe that all the issues are fixed? For me to be interested, every single problem that I'd encountered needs to be resolved. Why would I even consider accepting anything less? It's not "partial" self driving. An incremental improvement is useless.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#108

Post by bastawhiz »

terminalshort wrote: post #65
buran77 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have you tried I've heard this so many times it's starting to be a meme. The system was claimed to be very capable from the beginning, then every version was a massive improvement, and yet we're always still in very dangerous, and honestly underwhelming territory. Teslas keep racking up straight line highway miles where every intervention probably counts at most as 1 mile deducted from the total in the stats. Have…

It was very capable, and each version has been a big improvement. The first time I rode in a Tesla with FSD back in 2017 I was shocked by how good it was. Self driving tech has advanced so fast that we forget it was considered next to impossible even 15 years ago. You are judging past tech by 2025 standards.

For what it's worth, that was not my experience. 12 didn't fix all of the issues I'd heard about its predecessor. 13 didn't fix all the issues I experienced with 12. "Better" isn't enough, it needs to be so good that every issue with the previous generation is resolved. It's never been close to that.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#109

Post by bastawhiz »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #92
bastawhiz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own six EVs (three cars, one of which is a Tesla, and three motorcycles). My first EV was my Tesla. We're on the cusp of trading the Tesla in for a Rivian most likely. I should be Tesla's target customer, but instead I'm exactly who you described: - I don't like the brand. I don't like Elon. I don't like the reputation that the car attaches to me. - I don't trust the technology. I've gotten two FSD trials, both sca…

> instead of making cars for real people that love cars. Whoosh. They've been saying Tesla is an AI company for nearly a decade. AI has been propping up entire US economy for last few years. EV bandwagon has left long time ago. Saying all that I wouldn't mind even cheaper Tesla - small screen, 1 camera instead of 11, fully offline, fully stainless steel, fully open source - basically minimally tech and maximally main…

They make cars that mostly do their job. They don't make AI that does its job. They're not an AI company, they're a car company pretending they're not a car company.

Re: When Tesla's FSD works well, it gets credit. When it doesn't, you get blamed

#110

Post by buran77 »

terminalshort wrote: post #79
tippytippytango wrote: post #57

Ultimately, anecdotes and testimonials of a product like this are irrelevant. But the public discourse hasn't caught up with it. People talk about it like it's a new game console or app, giving their positive or negative testimonials, as if this is the correct way to validate the product. Only rigorous, continual, third party validation that the system is effective and safe would be relevant. It should be evaluated m…

If there was actually a rate of one life threatening accident per 10,000 miles with FSD that would be so obvious it would be impossible to hide. So I have to conclude the cars are actually much safer than that.

FSD never drives alone. It's always supervised by another driver legally responsible to correct. More importantly we have no independently verified data about the self driving incidents. Quite the opposite, Tesla repeatedly obscured data or impeded investigations.

I've made this comparison before but student drivers under instructor supervision (with secondary controls) also rarely crash. Are they the best drivers?

I am not a plane pilot but I flew a plane many times while supervised by the pilot. Never took off, never landed, but also never crashed. Am I better than a real pilot or even in any way a competent one?

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