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Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

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Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#101
post #23

Using "culture fit" to justify mass layoffs is, in fairness, probably a sign of a company's culture. Just not in the way they intended.

Indeed. It seems like splitting hairs. It says that their upper level management made a lot of bad calls about headcount growth. And, as always, it's the people below the decision makers who pay the price.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? in what way do you mean different? i would say it is wildly different

If you're worried about from poorer areas coming in and taking our jobs, how much distinction is there really whether they come from a poorer state or a poorer country? America has free and open trade within its borders. Nobody seems to mind that there are no visa restrictions on someone from Mississippi taking a job in California. The distinction we make between a foreigner coming to take a job and a domestic worker…

The distinction is that in America, we are obligated to take care of Americans.

If people immigrate to America, the arrangement should be mutually beneficial.

We are not, and should not be, the self-appointed saviors of the world.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? in what way do you mean different? i would say it is wildly different

If you're worried about from poorer areas coming in and taking our jobs, how much distinction is there really whether they come from a poorer state or a poorer country? America has free and open trade within its borders. Nobody seems to mind that there are no visa restrictions on someone from Mississippi taking a job in California. The distinction we make between a foreigner coming to take a job and a domestic worker…

hiring a domestic worker immediately reduces social burden on the rest of the country who should be supporting the domestic worker if they can't find work

hiring a foreign worker does not immediately reduce social burden on the country with the job

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#104

Amazon went from an innovative tech company with an efficient culture where builders could build and ship great products, and where promotions where based on merit, to a completely toxic bureaucratuc hellhole, where all decision making has been hijacked by sociopathic parasites who have learned to game the system for their own benefit. - most leadership, including technical, is now filled with compete imposters who h…

I knew some early on Amazon execs. There was crazy backstabbing of each other at the top from very early on.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#105
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful what you wish for. We could end up in a situation where we have unremarkable homes for $2 million and no local jobs capable of making the mortgage payments.

We are already pretty much there. Only probably a few percent can buy homes now in areas that have good job markets. The SF bay is firmly a 1%'er area now to buy a single family home. You need to now have two L5 incomes or so to even consider it...and somehow make that wage for 30 years... Yeah, no.

Yup. I am a CS professor at a community college in the Bay Area. I make good money for a tenure-track professor (slightly under $112,000, in fact), but the problem is that there are many thousands of households in the area that make multiples of what I make, and due to our limited housing supply, I can’t compete with them. Thus, home ownership within a 30-minute commute is not in the cards for me unless I become rich, and I’d need to make a 90+ minute commute from exurbia to find homes I could afford that are in safe neighborhoods. Even if I quit my job and somehow landed a high-paying software engineering position, I’d be scared about taking on a 30-year mortgage for over $1 million, especially since there’s no way to guarantee making a $200,000+ salary the entire length of the mortgage.

Thus, I rent an apartment, and I anticipate being a lifelong renter as long as I’m in the Bay Area. I also don’t anticipate being able to retire in the Bay Area, though that’s not for another 30 years. My long-term plan is to save a down payment for a vacation home somewhere affordable that I’ll use as my retirement home when the time comes.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#106

From Jassy's blog post in September: >It’s created artifacts that we’d like to change (e.g., pre-meetings for the pre-meetings for the decision meetings, a longer line of managers feeling like they need to review a topic before it moves forward, owners of initiatives feeling less like they should make recommendations because the decision will be made elsewhere, etc.) [...] So, we’re asking each s-team organization to…

> Amazon is a meatgrinder on its workforce, but I will give credit where it's due - I think thinning out management is a noble goal and endeavor. If it's true that these layoffs don't impact as many IC roles, it's probably worth calling that out.

Their filings show that it is still mostly ICs. If you’re doing a cut of 15% of the company (or whatever the number is), that has to include a large number of ICs.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#107
Even in Reagan's yuppie cocaine fueled 1980s America, layouts around the holidays were considered a very bad, and only done when a company was desperate. It was a guaranteed social scarlet letter for executives. In post 2010 'tech bro' America, management does it just for the LOLs. This isn't normal, even for capitalist America.

The average tech CEO today is a much greater villian daily than the nationally reviled 'corporate raiders' of that time were a couple of times a year. I don't know WTF happened to this country.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? in what way do you mean different? i would say it is wildly different

If you're worried about from poorer areas coming in and taking our jobs, how much distinction is there really whether they come from a poorer state or a poorer country? America has free and open trade within its borders. Nobody seems to mind that there are no visa restrictions on someone from Mississippi taking a job in California. The distinction we make between a foreigner coming to take a job and a domestic worker…

ignoring the absurdness of this argument, it's actually a better deal for some workers to stay in poorer areas of the US because there are now similar job opportunities nationwide while those areas have a lower cost of living. can't find the study rn bc i'm busy but it came out a few years ago i think. used to be a worker from the south would move to NYC and it would drastically change their financial situation, but now it's not the case anymore.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#109

There's been a lot of debate around Amazon's hiring practices, particularly given the conflicting data and statements from the company. A core issue seems to be that Amazon has alienated a significant portion of its domestic engineering talent pool. Many experienced engineers have left, and others seem unwilling to return, even when offered higher-level roles. I personally was an L7 engineer and turned down a boomera…

The link you posted is broken. But I can tell you with fair certainty that Amazon's high turnover rate is NOT happening in their engineering departments, though. It's happening in their retail or business departments. I'm kind of horrified by the rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric in engineering circles online and how normalized it's becoming. (Especially troubling how much Indians in particular are drawing ire). Is it…

The links I have added above all show that Engineers are in fact impacted by this.

Re: Amazon says it didn't cut people because of money. But because of 'culture'

#110

There's been a lot of debate around Amazon's hiring practices, particularly given the conflicting data and statements from the company. A core issue seems to be that Amazon has alienated a significant portion of its domestic engineering talent pool. Many experienced engineers have left, and others seem unwilling to return, even when offered higher-level roles. I personally was an L7 engineer and turned down a boomera…

The link you posted is broken. But I can tell you with fair certainty that Amazon's high turnover rate is NOT happening in their engineering departments, though. It's happening in their retail or business departments. I'm kind of horrified by the rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric in engineering circles online and how normalized it's becoming. (Especially troubling how much Indians in particular are drawing ire). Is it…

> I'm kind of horrified by the rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric in engineering circles online and how normalized it's becoming

Agree, and it came on pretty suddenly as well, which is particularly horrifying. To me it shows how fragile civility and safety is. I see this type of sentiment showing up in the comment sections of YouTube videos on tech or financial topics recently. I think the reality is when people feel their own way of life and chance at becoming rich is at risk, they will search for whatever external risk they can eliminate. And increased competition (from foreign talent) is one such risk.

If it were just that, it would be one thing. But alongside the protectionism, I am seeing a lot of outright racist comments accompanying this backlash against immigrant labor. Like comments that play up stereotypes or worse. As a mild example, I see people saying things like “They can’t fix their own country so they’re coming to ruin ours” or “We don’t need more call center scammers”.

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