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The App Store was always authoritarian

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Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#101

Post by slightlyoff »

troupo wrote: post #100
slightlyoff wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's try this again: was Apple wrong to ship Storage Access ahead of everyone else? https://caniuse.com/mdn-api_document_requeststorageaccess In the world you want, how should leadership in designs manifest when there isn't consensus? Should nothing ship? And who does that help?

Let's try this again: Chrome ships dozens of APIs that it then advertises as fait accompli standards. Often when there's even no consensus on the shape of an API. Or worse (see WebHID which Chrome shipped literally without an actionable spec). Did Safari ship requestStorageAccess in the same manner? If yes, yes it was wrong . It's not a trick question though you somehow think it is. Again, and it's insane that I have…

It's not insane that you have to explain it to me, because your premise is _wrong_. Go look at the founding documents for web SDOs. Voluntary adoption is foundational to the entire effort, and as I keep pointing out, Apple is the only party that has undermined it:

https://infrequently.org/2025/09/apples-crimes-against-the-i...

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#102

Post by troupo »

slightlyoff wrote: post #101
troupo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's try this again: Chrome ships dozens of APIs that it then advertises as fait accompli standards. Often when there's even no consensus on the shape of an API. Or worse (see WebHID which Chrome shipped literally without an actionable spec). Did Safari ship requestStorageAccess in the same manner? If yes, yes it was wrong . It's not a trick question though you somehow think it is. Again, and it's insane that I have…

It's not insane that you have to explain it to me, because your premise is _wrong_. Go look at the founding documents for web SDOs. Voluntary adoption is foundational to the entire effort, and as I keep pointing out, Apple is the only party that has undermined it: https://infrequently.org/2025/09/apples-crimes-against-the-i...

> It's not insane that you have to explain it to me, because your premise is _wrong_.

Are you saying that "if something is shipped in a browser (especially dominant one like Chrome), it will be there, and people will end up dependent on it, and it will be hard to change or remove" is the wrong premise?

> I keep pointing out, Apple is the only party that has undermined it:

I've updated my reply, addressing this claim, too.

"Apple is the only one that undermined the process", but Chrome is blameless because "Blin's process is rigorous and without fail, and everyone ships anything they want anyway"?

> Voluntary adoption is foundational to the entire effort

Yes, and Google abuses this by shipping whatever it wants at neck-breaking pace regardless of any possible differing view.

Basically you're literally saying "because adoption is voluntary Chrome has the right to do whatever it wants. However, no one else is allowed to do whatever they want (e.g. not adopting Chrome-only non-standards) because whatever Chrome ships is law".

Edit: note how you call standards that Chrome ships "fundamental web standards that Safari must implement because it just must". But Chrome is fully absolved of any blame.

Late edit: This quote is absolutely hilarious: "Apple alone must be on the hook to implement any and every web platform feature shipped by any and every other engine. "

So much for "voluntary". "Whatever Chrome ships is law".

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#103

Post by array_key_first »

bitwize wrote: post #6

I don't think Google has handled Android particularly well, but you have to be on some 1990s Netscape kool-aid to think that the web is or should be "the primary way for users to experience computing". Computing is just one kind of online service, and despite decades of effort to attempt to force-fit all applications into a browser, sometimes just a damn program that runs natively on the CPU is a much better fit for…

Most applications are forms and slow moving visualizations. Consider banking - banking is very complicated. It's just forms and slow moving visualizations. It can, and should, be on the web.

Also, most native apps are just web views anyway.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#104

Post by seanmcdirmid »

array_key_first wrote: post #103
bitwize wrote: post #6

I don't think Google has handled Android particularly well, but you have to be on some 1990s Netscape kool-aid to think that the web is or should be "the primary way for users to experience computing". Computing is just one kind of online service, and despite decades of effort to attempt to force-fit all applications into a browser, sometimes just a damn program that runs natively on the CPU is a much better fit for…

Most applications are forms and slow moving visualizations. Consider banking - banking is very complicated. It's just forms and slow moving visualizations. It can, and should, be on the web. Also, most native apps are just web views anyway.

Banking is one kind of app where additional security constraints make a mobile app experience more convenient than a web app. Yes, you can do security stuff in a web app, no it isn't as seemless or nice as a mobile app. Everything else, sure, but anything that requires higher stakes authentication (beyond just buying things) I'm ok with it being a mobile app.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#106

Post by array_key_first »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #104
array_key_first wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most applications are forms and slow moving visualizations. Consider banking - banking is very complicated. It's just forms and slow moving visualizations. It can, and should, be on the web. Also, most native apps are just web views anyway.

Banking is one kind of app where additional security constraints make a mobile app experience more convenient than a web app. Yes, you can do security stuff in a web app, no it isn't as seemless or nice as a mobile app. Everything else, sure, but anything that requires higher stakes authentication (beyond just buying things) I'm ok with it being a mobile app.

These additional security constraints come at the cost of remote attestation. There is a steep, steep price for this - you are trading your freedom in exchange for a very small convenience.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#107

Post by Ferret7446 »

mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

The fact of the matter is that most people are stupid and a company that protects its customers from themselves will be more successful and outcompete a "moral" company.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#108

Post by Ferret7446 »

noman-land wrote: post #96
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of which only existed because Android was open source in the first place (but the app store was not). Something far more generous than most companies.

It's not generous, it's a calculated business decision no different than a drug dealer giving out hits for free.

So you're saying a more abusive company is better because it's not actively trying to attract users by being less abusive?

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#109

Post by seec »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #107
mycocola wrote: post #32

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

The fact of the matter is that most people are stupid and a company that protects its customers from themselves will be more successful and outcompete a "moral" company.

Except people usually try to find ways around moral problems. For now, the pressure isn't too big but I think at some point the buildup will be too much and the fall for Apple will be very harsh.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#110

Post by seec »

schoen wrote: post #55

Note that Apple's app store transparency report (thanks to them for publishing this, they don't have to) https://www.apple.com/legal/more-resources/docs/2024-App-Sto... says that there are over 1700 apps removed per year due to "government takedown demands". Since this is separate from about 2 million (!) apps they rejected from the app store and about 80,000 apps they removed from the app store on their own initiati…

Agreed. In any way you put it, when you push the "argument" to its retranchement, it equivocates to: we should ban usage of paper/pen/printing press because those things can be used to make propaganda for other groups than the power in place.

Of course, tech makes all of this more efficient but it's not like if the government does not have access to the tool as well and it's not like if they didn't come up with yet many more creative ways to control and punish undesirable behavior.

Best (worst) case scenario it's fair game but with their control the common law-abiding man just gets fucked in the end for not much benefits (fake security yeah).

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