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AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

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Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#101

Post by abound »

strogonoff wrote: post #99
alberth wrote: post #50

Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content? I have a top-of-the-line 4K TV and gigabit internet, yet the compression artifacts make everything look like putty. Honestly, the best picture quality I’ve ever seen was over 20 years ago using simple digital rabbit ears. You especially notice the compression on gradients and in dark movie scenes. And yes — my TV is fully calibrated, and I’m paying for…

Content delivery costs a lot for streaming services. After content is produced, this is basically the only remaining cost. It’s not surprising that they would go to extreme measures in reducing bitrate. That’s why, presumably, Netflix came up with the algorithm for removing camera grain and adding synthetically generated noise on the client[0], and why YouTube shorts were recently in the news for using extreme denois…

This isn't strictly Netflix per se, it's part of the AV1 codec itself, e.g. https://github.com/BlueSwordM/SVT-AV1/blob/master/Docs/Appen...

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#102

Post by codedokode »

strogonoff wrote: post #99
alberth wrote: post #50

Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content? I have a top-of-the-line 4K TV and gigabit internet, yet the compression artifacts make everything look like putty. Honestly, the best picture quality I’ve ever seen was over 20 years ago using simple digital rabbit ears. You especially notice the compression on gradients and in dark movie scenes. And yes — my TV is fully calibrated, and I’m paying for…

Content delivery costs a lot for streaming services. After content is produced, this is basically the only remaining cost. It’s not surprising that they would go to extreme measures in reducing bitrate. That’s why, presumably, Netflix came up with the algorithm for removing camera grain and adding synthetically generated noise on the client[0], and why YouTube shorts were recently in the news for using extreme denois…

There might be also copyright owners requirements, e.g. contract that limits the quality of material.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#103

Post by CooCooCaCha »

bee_rider wrote: post #82
whycome wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon we will just have local AI processors which will just make stuff up between scenes but adhere to a “close enough” guideline where all narratively critical elements are maintained but other things (eg landscapes or trees) will be generated locally. Movies will practically be long cutscenes with photorealistic graphics.

At that point we aren’t even all watching the same movies. Which could be interesting. But very different—I mean, even stuff like talking with your friends about a movie you saw will change drastically. Maybe a service could be centered around sharing your movie prompts so have a shared movie experience to talk to your friends about.

Entertainment is becoming increasingly customizable and personalized. It’ll get to the point, like you said, that we’re not watching the same movie, playing the same game, etc.

It feels like we’re losing something, a shared experience, in favor of an increasingly narcissistic attitude that everything needs to shapeable to individual preferences instead of accepting things as they are.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#104

Post by o11c »

lxgr wrote: post #33
ttoinou wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean the file extension should only reflect the file format and not the codecs it has inside ? Maybe that’s what we did in the past and it was a bad idea. It’d be useful to know if you can read the file by looking only at its extension

> Do you mean the file extension should only reflect the file format and not the codecs it has inside ? That's pretty much always been the case. File extensions are just not expressive enough to capture all the nuances of audio and video codecs. MIME types are a bit better. Audio is a bit of an exception with the popularity of MP3 (which is both a codec and a relatively minimal container format for it).

If only people would actually bother to write the codecs in the MIME type in the first place ...

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#105

Post by strogonoff »

abound wrote: post #101
strogonoff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content delivery costs a lot for streaming services. After content is produced, this is basically the only remaining cost. It’s not surprising that they would go to extreme measures in reducing bitrate. That’s why, presumably, Netflix came up with the algorithm for removing camera grain and adding synthetically generated noise on the client[0], and why YouTube shorts were recently in the news for using extreme denois…

This isn't strictly Netflix per se, it's part of the AV1 codec itself, e.g. https://github.com/BlueSwordM/SVT-AV1/blob/master/Docs/Appen...

Yes, I was not strictly correct, it is a feature of AV1, but Netflix played an active role in its development, in rolling out the first implementation, and in AV1 codec development overall.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#106

Post by toast0 »

dsnr wrote: post #41
occz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While funny, that's not really what I would call accurate. Users get reduced data consumption, potentially higher quality selection if the bandwidth now allows for a higher resolution to be streamed, and possibly lower disk usage should they decide to offline the videos. Better codecs are an overall win for everyone involved.

> Better codecs are an overall win for everyone involved. I don’t remember ever watching a movie and wishing for a better codec, in the last 10 years

I can send you some of my DVDs that look like trash now. Of course, that's less of a codec problem and more of a bandwidth/encoder/mastering problem; plenty of DVDs look fine (if a little undetailed) on a larger screen.

I do wish ATSC1 would adopt a newer codec (and maybe they will), most of the broadcasters cram too many subchannels in their 20mbps and a better codec would help for a while. ATSC3 has a better video codec and more efficient physical encoding, but it also DRM and a new proprietary audio codec, so it's not helpful for me.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#107

Post by bee_rider »

CooCooCaCha wrote: post #103
bee_rider wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point we aren’t even all watching the same movies. Which could be interesting. But very different—I mean, even stuff like talking with your friends about a movie you saw will change drastically. Maybe a service could be centered around sharing your movie prompts so have a shared movie experience to talk to your friends about.

Entertainment is becoming increasingly customizable and personalized. It’ll get to the point, like you said, that we’re not watching the same movie, playing the same game, etc. It feels like we’re losing something, a shared experience, in favor of an increasingly narcissistic attitude that everything needs to shapeable to individual preferences instead of accepting things as they are.

I dunno. Entertainment is sort of inherently selfish, right? It is an unproductive thing we engage in to make us happy.

I’d be somewhat interested in something like a git that generates movies, that my friends can push to.

Extremely widespread mass media fiction broadcast are sort of an aberration of the last 75 years or so. I mean, you’d have works in ancient times—the Odyssey—that are shared across a culture. But, that was still a story customize by each teller, and those sorts of stories were rare. Canon was mainly a concern of religions.

It’s just for fun, we give it far too much weight nowadays.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#108

Post by ksec »

TheJoeMan wrote: post #95
alberth wrote: post #50

Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content? I have a top-of-the-line 4K TV and gigabit internet, yet the compression artifacts make everything look like putty. Honestly, the best picture quality I’ve ever seen was over 20 years ago using simple digital rabbit ears. You especially notice the compression on gradients and in dark movie scenes. And yes — my TV is fully calibrated, and I’m paying for…

I’m still so surprised Disney+ degrades their content/streaming service so much. Of all the main services I’ve tried (Netflix, Prime, Hulu, HBO) Disney+ has some of the worst over-compression, lip-sync, and remembering-which-episode-is-next issues for me. Takes away from the “magic”.

This is interesting because Disney+ when they started out were using much higher bitrate, 2nd only to Apple+.

Re: AV2 video codec delivers 30% lower bitrate than AV1, final spec due in late 2025

#110

Post by ksec »

alberth wrote: post #50

Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content? I have a top-of-the-line 4K TV and gigabit internet, yet the compression artifacts make everything look like putty. Honestly, the best picture quality I’ve ever seen was over 20 years ago using simple digital rabbit ears. You especially notice the compression on gradients and in dark movie scenes. And yes — my TV is fully calibrated, and I’m paying for…

>Will streaming services ever stop over-compressing their content?

Before COVID Netflix were at least using 8Mbps for 1080P content. With x264 / beamr it is pretty good, and even better on HEVC. Then COVID hit, every streaming service not just Netflix have excuses to lower their quality due to increased demand with limited bandwidth. Everything went down hill since then. Customer got used to lower quality I dont believe they ever bring it back up. Now it is only something like 3-5Mbps according to previous test posted on HN.

And while it is easy for HEVC / AV1 / AV2 to have 50%+ bitrate real world savings compared to H.264 saving at 0.5 - 4Mbps range, once you go pass that the savings begin to shrink rapidly to the point good old x264 encoder may perform better at much higher bitrate.

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