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Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

theguardian.com

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Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#101

Post by 5f3cfa1a »

nickff wrote: post #84
loverofhumanz wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I’m a little confused by what there is to investigate at all." You're confused why they should investigate how everyone on that flight came within minutes of dying? Something about the fuel reserves, procedures, or execution was clearly flawed.

Fuel depletion is risky, but not that risky; see the Gimli Glider for a case much more dangerous than this, which still worked out amazingly well. Edit: Here is the Wiki on incidents... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_starvation_and_fuel_exhau...

Fuel depletion is _not that risky_ is an interesting take. But hey, it won Chapecoense its first and only Copa Sudamericana, so maybe it isn't that bad after all?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaMia_Flight_2933

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#102

Post by cpncrunch »

jacquesm wrote: post #75
gsnedders wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, final fuel reserves are typically at least half an hour, and you shouldn't really be cutting into them. What if their first approach into MAN had led to another go around? With a major storm heading north-easterly across the UK, the planning should have reasonably foreseen that an airport 56 miles east may also be unavailable, and should've further diverted prior to that point. They likely used t…

Just reaching altitude again to make it to the first and later second alternate are mostly likely the biggest factors in the extra fuel consumption. That's very expensive.

The 30 min reserve is on top of the fuel needed to reach the alternate and do a landing there, so only the flight to the second alternate, plus the 2nd and 3rd landings at the initial destination would have cut into the reserve.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#103

Post by bagels »

dTal wrote: post #85
jacquesm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reaching altitude again to make it to the first and later second alternate are mostly likely the biggest factors in the extra fuel consumption. That's very expensive.

You get that energy back on descent, no?

Some of it, but much is lost to drag. They do have to limit speed at all times.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#104

Post by dghlsakjg »

bombcar wrote: post #25
dghlsakjg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What indication is there that our pilots are undertrained? I am just a PPL, and that was not an easy thing to accomplish (most pilots complete 50% more hours than required before they are able to pass that test), but my impression is that western training standards for commercial pilots are incredibly high, and the safety record seems to back that up.

Its arguably too high, constraining the supply of pilots, and the supply of well-paying jobs, resulting in things like Colgan Air Flight 3407.

In the US, I think that's probably true especially using hours as a proxy for training.

The EU has shown us that you can safely have far fewer hours.

As a pilot I do think that nothing replaces butt in seat, but I also think that 1500 hours of instructing/aerial surveying/hour building is well into the diminished marginal returns area.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#105

Post by tamcap »

dTal wrote: post #85
jacquesm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reaching altitude again to make it to the first and later second alternate are mostly likely the biggest factors in the extra fuel consumption. That's very expensive.

You get that energy back on descent, no?

Not really. While you have a large potential energy buildup at a higher altitude, you cannot "bank it" / "save it" on descent. There is no way to store it in batteries or convert it back into fuel.

One of the challenges of aeronautics is the efficient disposition of the potential energy without converting it all into kinetic energy (ie speed) so that the landing happens at an optimally low speed - thus giving you a chance to brake and slow down at the end.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#106

Post by jacquesm »

krisoft wrote: post #86
jacquesm wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one conclusion. But don't rule out a lot of other things that may have been a factor, for instance, they may have had a batch of bad fuel, they may have had less fuel to start with than they thought they had (this happens, it shouldn't but it does happen), the fuel indicators may have been off (you only know for sure after touch down), there may have been a leak, an engine may have been burning more than it sh…

I read and agree with all those options being possible. Except the "they may have had a batch of bad fuel". How would that work in your thinking? I can imagine a bad batch of fuel leading to engine damage or flameout and many other things, but it is hard for me to imagine how a bad batch would lead to not enough fuel remaining in the tank.

If you have more water in the fuel than you think you do (there always is some due to condensation in the tanks) then you might be able to reach your destination but you'll be burning more 'fuel' than your original estimate would have you believe because there is less power per unit weight of (contaminated) fuel.

This is fairly common in GA and there are cases where it has happened in scheduled flights as well. That's why fuel sampling is common practice.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#107

Post by kpmcc »

kroolik wrote: post #78
parineum wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, senior pilots make as much as some FAANG developers That's a funny way to phrase it. I'd probably go the other way and say "sure, FAANG developers make as much as some pilots..." Those pilots have hundreds of lives on the line every day.

Those FAANG devs have milions of (social) lives on the line, though. Every day.

Is this a joke?

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#108

Post by estebank »

kpmcc wrote: post #92
fidotron wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have known former air traffic controllers that won't fly certain airlines because of a notorious habit some have for queue jumping by claiming they're low on fuel. If they are low on fuel is something else, but in any case when the ATCs have noticed a pattern then something is up. This situation sounds a lot less nefarious, but it does also sound like they should have rerouted earlier.

Which airlines? I feel like if this is an issue we should be naming names.

RyanAir is famously one of them.

Edit: I was recalling articles claiming the company purposely fueling less than other airlines in order to increase their rate of claims for priority landing to have a better "on time" statistics.

This forum post disputes that: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/38501/is-it-tru...

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#109

Post by epcoa »

dTal wrote: post #85
jacquesm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just reaching altitude again to make it to the first and later second alternate are mostly likely the biggest factors in the extra fuel consumption. That's very expensive.

You get that energy back on descent, no?

How? On descent you can trade some of your altitude (potential energy) for kinetic energy, but then you can’t land the plane. For descent on an approach you’re going from low energy to even lower energy. In emergencies and with enough runway you can futz around with this some, but wiggle room on an airliner is not great, negligible to what will be expended on a go around.
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