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How Europe crushes innovation

economist.com

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Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#101

Post by piva00 »

Muromec wrote: post #100
piva00 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let them get richer, the same people who talk with these threatening remarks also talk how capitalism isn't a zero-sum game, someone else becoming richer doesn't mean someone else getting poorer, right? Just means getting richer at a slower rate, Europe is pretty rich on global standards, let's keep getting a bit richer while others get the chance to reach these levels.

It's not about being less rich than US, it's about US using all this money to influence politics here, because the can afford it.

That would be, in my opinion, an orthogonal issue, and not clear from your "and eat you anyway" remark.

The only good thing coming out of both Trump's terms is the diminishing influence of the US, I can see your point on how US money could influence politics here but at the same time it's also now much harder for that influence to take hold properly. US influence was much stronger back in the late 90s, early 00s, it's been waning since 9/11, and kinda reaching a tipping point with Trump.

The next financial implosion, which is inevitable in the boom-bust cycles, can likely cement this diminished influence, the US won't have that much extra money sloshing around to fuck with other countries, they are losing long-time allies which propped them up to recover from the 2008 mess they created. It'll probably be the best time to decouple away from the US, including their financial influence in our politics.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#102

Post by naldb »

Muromec wrote: post #99
naldb wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know at the time of hiring that months or years down the road the business won’t go well?

Your problem, not mine, lol.

Actually it’s everybody’s problem, since job inflexibility is one of the reasons why Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries.

Who exactly benefits from a business going under? Its bigger competitors? The less well off are the ones that suffer the most from oligarchic sectors and cartels.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#103

Post by surgical_fire »

naldb wrote: post #102
Muromec wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your problem, not mine, lol.

Actually it’s everybody’s problem, since job inflexibility is one of the reasons why Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries. Who exactly benefits from a business going under? Its bigger competitors? The less well off are the ones that suffer the most from oligarchic sectors and cartels.

> Actually it’s everybody’s problem, since job inflexibility is one of the reasons why Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries.

Except it is not. I chose to live in the EU when I had the option to move to the US, and it is fine.

Unless your measurement of "being poor" is that you can't exploit people in a get rich quick scheme and make destructive amounts of money but being acquired or dumping your IPO in the stock market.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#104

Post by surgical_fire »

naldb wrote: post #92
surgical_fire wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how it works. You just can't fire at will. If your business can't afford to fire people it probably shouldn't be hiring too.

How do you know at the time of hiring that months or years down the road the business won’t go well?

If you are a business owner, the business doing well is your fucking job. If you can't do your job you should fail.

What you want is the freedom to be shitty at running your company, and offload your incompetence by exploiting the workers under you.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#105

Post by Muromec »

piva00 wrote: post #101
Muromec wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about being less rich than US, it's about US using all this money to influence politics here, because the can afford it.

That would be, in my opinion, an orthogonal issue, and not clear from your "and eat you anyway" remark. The only good thing coming out of both Trump's terms is the diminishing influence of the US, I can see your point on how US money could influence politics here but at the same time it's also now much harder for that influence to take hold properly. US influence was much stronger back in the late 90s, early 00s, it'…

We already have one broke wannabe empire with nukes, can't wait to have two of them fucking around in a search of lost glory.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#106

Post by Muromec »

naldb wrote: post #102
Muromec wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your problem, not mine, lol.

Actually it’s everybody’s problem, since job inflexibility is one of the reasons why Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries. Who exactly benefits from a business going under? Its bigger competitors? The less well off are the ones that suffer the most from oligarchic sectors and cartels.

>Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries.

is it?

>Who exactly benefits from a business going under? Its bigger competitors? The less well off are the ones that suffer the most from oligarchic sectors and cartels.

The big thing going under right now is legacy auto manufacturers in Germany. That's sad, but the same happened in US without all the labor protections. It's just a lifecycle of industries -- they got fat and comfortable.

The way German manufacturers managed to outlive US ones while having stronger labor laws seems to contradict you story big time.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#107

Post by grimblee »

The economist is ultra-rich propaganda, anyone agreeing with their articles without billions off-shore is just being manipulated against their best interest. What this tells me is: we want less regulation in Europe to accumulate more and more wealth, please be naive and passively agree with it.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#108

Post by ImageXav »

surgical_fire wrote: post #87
ImageXav wrote: post #13

I would add an aspect that is not covered here but is often ignored: the strong labour protection laws result in a mentality where if you get a good job you are much less likely to want to take risks e.g. start your own business. There was a post on the HENRY (high earner, not rich yet) UK subreddit the other day from someone who had a wealth of experience and had the opportunity to join a start up as a CTO. It hones…

And that was sound advice. I had the opportunity to move to the US and likely make 2-3x what I make in Europe. My question is - what for? I earn enough money here that I could buy a nice house and raise my family in relative comfort. Why take unnecessary risk when I already have what I want?

I guess that's the crux of it. From an individual perspective it makes sense to stay in a stable environment, especially if a family is involved. However, I think from a societal perspective it is desirable to have people who gamble on creating new products which can raise the bar in their given industries.

Also, just because the start up fails doesn't mean it was a waste of time. If you manage to provide employment for even just 3 or 4 people for a few years, help them and yourself develop, that is a valuable success.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#109

Post by onraglanroad »

naldb wrote: post #102
Muromec wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your problem, not mine, lol.

Actually it’s everybody’s problem, since job inflexibility is one of the reasons why Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries. Who exactly benefits from a business going under? Its bigger competitors? The less well off are the ones that suffer the most from oligarchic sectors and cartels.

> Europe is so poor compared to other first world countries.

By GDP per capita, 7 of the top 10 countries in the world are European.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

Given this fact, will you now question your priors, or try to find a new justification for them?

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#110

Post by xela79 »

jstummbillig wrote: post #20
knowledge-clay wrote: post #10

I'd rather live in a society with strong labor protections than one that is "more innovative", whatever that means.

Do you really? Or do you actually want to sustain your standard of living as safely as you can? Because then the question arises: What if the current way of handling labor protection in the EU (as one of many components) leads to destroying yours and everyone elses standard of living, simply because it's unaffordable? Would you still argue that this is the way to go? Everyone going down with the ship together? I don'…

> Do you really?

spotted the capitalist.

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