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Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

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Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#101

Post by Brian_K_White »

scott_w wrote: post #66
energy123 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point is actually the Netherlands, which is the country the GP is from. When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they relied on the state's exceptional record keeping of individuals to hunt down the undesirables. Many people died that didn't have to die because the bad guys were enabled by the data systems built by the good guys. > It will be a perfect dictatorship that can never be toppled, it can only get…

> When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they relied on the state's exceptional record keeping of individuals to hunt down the undesirables. Many people died that didn't have to die because the bad guys were enabled by the data systems built by the good guys. In many cases, they looked at the census records; something that most western nations have today anyway. Let's be real: if your government decides to slaught…

Let's be real, helping is worse than not helping.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#102

Post by scott_w »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #95
buildfocus wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Spain at least, most banks have foreigner accounts you can open with a passport, and convert into a normal account once you have local id later. It's a mildly unusual setup (and a bit confusing when you're new) but it's pretty widely available and it's not a significant blocker. There's plenty of other challenges and structural disadvantages as an immigrant, but this one at least isn't too bad. If anything, there…

It is not a problem to open a bank account with a foreign passport in the UK, and most banks have accounts for those who've just moved to the UK. Hundreds of thousands of people move to the UK every year...

However, you also need proof of address to open a bank account. Which someone moving to the UK won’t have yet. This limits their options of bank accounts.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#103

Post by agedclock »

scott_w wrote: post #60
hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is: 1. To open a bank account you need an address 2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account 3. See above The same happens for children…

The same happened in Spain when I used to live there. I ended up just paying everything cash in hand until I could get a bank account.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#104

Post by agnishom »

buildfocus wrote: post #92
agnishom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main concern here is that it will create a narrow bridge (i.e, the digital ID system) between people and various services and opportunities which will make it an easy target for people who wish to wield power against someone. Perhaps your digital ID is needed to open a bank account, get a phone number, sign up for insurance, etc. Now, suppose some fascist government comes into power. They could start cancelling t…

We already have exactly this right now, without digital ids, it's not even theoretical. The government blocks plenty of residents from aspects of society (eg can't work based on visa rules, can't access public/health services at all without legal residency). Currently that's enforced by random members of e.g. medical staff looking at your skin colour to decide whether to ask to check your physical paperwork before th…

> We already have exactly this right now, without digital ids, it's not even theoretical.

That is true. I was answering skrebbel's question about [how does having a digital ID system lead to perfect law enforcement?].

> Governments enforce plenty of paperwork checks & blocks today. I think a digital id strictly improves this scenario.

I hope you are right. Personally, I am not against Digital ID. My concern is, (a) how can we make sure that the infrastructure operating the digital ID is democratically controlled and not just owned by tech oligopolies; and (b) what security practices, social norms, and legal checks and balances shall we implement to prevent weaponization of this sort of infrastructure and violations of privacy?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#105

Post by sjw987 »

The issue isn't so much an identification system, or a digital identification system. It's just that we're waiting to see if there's going to be a non-smartphone implementation of this, and we're waiting to find out if this is handled locally or handed to a company like Palantir (which is likely given their cosying up to the UK government).

If this ID is only required at point of reference for job applications, as they are implying, why does it need to be operated via smartphone app? Can it not just be a card, or website? If it's purely digital, what happens in the case of a leak, cyber attack or internet outage?

If the ID grows in purpose in the future, does this mean we'll have to carry smartphones around with us at all times as if it were an extension of our body? You don't have to be much of a conspiracy theorist to take issue with the idea of carrying an internet connected microphone, camera and location tracked device around at all times.

They aren't revealing anything yet. I want the UK to stay a country where you don't need to reveal identification at a whim, as opposed to a country where you must always carry it at all times ready for questioning. I don't want to live in a state where a lack of smartphone is grounds for suspicion of criminal/illegal behaviour.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#106

Post by mytailorisrich »

scott_w wrote: post #100
mytailorisrich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issues you mention have nothing to do with having an ID card so a Digital ID won't change anything. Regarding passports, really at this point people who don't have one don't want one.

Except they will? We require multiple proofs because there’s no central place a bank or company, etc, can go to prove that you live in the UK. The excessive requirements to provide multiple proofs to your employer of your right to work are explicitly because there’s no single proof of your right to work in the UK. If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to wo…

If you have an address, you have a proof of address. Digital IDs won't magically prove your address, and I don't think there plan is to include addresses. But if Dìgital IDs include address then you'll have to prove your address to the Digital ID first exactly like you prove your address now: with documents.

Regarding right to work (you are changing topic): if you are a citizen you can show your passport, if you don't have a passport because you don't want one you can show your birth certificate. If you are not a citizen you show your passport and provide a share code. It is simple and there are no "excessive requirements".

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#107

Post by sjw987 »

Lauris100 wrote: post #31
a-french-anon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can it be used without a smartphone aka "portable telescreen"? Do they explicitly guarantee this'll remain the case? If not, you're just being hoodwinked via cheap convenience.

Everyone has a smartphone lol - i can tell that living in a country with great digital services is a lot less stressful than in country with no digitization and old school paperwork i have gone through both.

Not everybody wants to carry a smartphone around all the time.

If the ID becomes about more than proving right to work, and becomes a daily carry, it's not hard to see the appeal of a government down the line tapping into an always on-hand microphone, GPS, internet enabled device.

Even putting the tin foil hat aside, I and many people like me enjoy leaving the phone at home, and want as little time spent on the thing as possible.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#108

Post by mytailorisrich »

scott_w wrote: post #102
mytailorisrich wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a problem to open a bank account with a foreign passport in the UK, and most banks have accounts for those who've just moved to the UK. Hundreds of thousands of people move to the UK every year...

However, you also need proof of address to open a bank account. Which someone moving to the UK won’t have yet. This limits their options of bank accounts.

Which has no relation to Digital IDs whatsoever... and again most banks have accounts that cater for this situation.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#109

Post by agedclock »

scott_w wrote: post #100
mytailorisrich wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issues you mention have nothing to do with having an ID card so a Digital ID won't change anything. Regarding passports, really at this point people who don't have one don't want one.

Except they will? We require multiple proofs because there’s no central place a bank or company, etc, can go to prove that you live in the UK. The excessive requirements to provide multiple proofs to your employer of your right to work are explicitly because there’s no single proof of your right to work in the UK. If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to wo…

Sorry you are totally misrepresenting how difficult it is. Here is the checklist:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68b6b7e7536d6...

> If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to work in the UK, for which your employer is liable if they get it wrong.

No it isn't. You need a Birth Certificate and a previous paycheck and something that has your NI number on it, and usually something to prove your address e.g. Utility Bill.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#110

Post by Forhan »

stroebs wrote: post #55

Having grown up in South Africa, having a physical document to prove who you are, along with an identity number is just so normalised. When I moved to the UK later in life, I found it absolutely bizarre that there’s no mechanism to uniquely identify yourself to the government, or any other entity that deals with your personal/financial/health identity. It’s just a combination of name and address, which anyone can acc…

I'm in South Africa and working for an Australian company. I still find it weird that they don't have ID numbers, instead we make use of a name + surname + DoB combination. I didn't even know it was like that in the UK as well or anywhere else to be honest, I always just assumed everyone makes use of government issued ID's.
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