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The Lost Chapter

aarongreenspan.com

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Re: The Lost Chapter

#101

Post by 001sky »

grellas wrote: post #77

Institutional investors made the mistake - again, and again, and again - of validating Mark's duplicitousness by pouring literally billions of dollars into his company, and then billions more into startups seeking to emulate it. Some of their investments created out of thin air industries that contribute absolutely nothing to, and in many cases even detract from, society. . . . Most mind-boggling of all, it's been cl…

I don't think this is a mere technical issue either. I believe that no guilt or stigma should attach to ventures doing [legal] things just because...

--There's a reason for ethics in law, economics and public policy.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#102

Post by corporalagumbo »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #96
corporalagumbo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, did you have to write all that? Anyway, although I think you are focusing on the weakest part of Greenspan's argument - the point where he comes closest to bitterness - I was wondering if you'd like to invest $20,000 in my new venture. I'd like to sell crack heroin to junkies in Detroit. I'm sure as a fellow champion of guilt-free founder consciences, you will support my endeavour as I give gangbangers the chan…

In a free society, he is free to write as much as he likes and you are free to neither read nor reply to it. The base of his argument is offending a persons preferences is not sufficient to self censor ones own actions - and I agree. I also agree where he said any legal start up is fine and free of guilt - but don't worry I would be behind any start up or government initiative that gave away heroin to Junkies. The so…

As I argue in my other reply, legal and ethical boundaries on the internet are still poorly if at all defined.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#103

Post by mattmanser »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #81
grellas wrote: post #77

Institutional investors made the mistake - again, and again, and again - of validating Mark's duplicitousness by pouring literally billions of dollars into his company, and then billions more into startups seeking to emulate it. Some of their investments created out of thin air industries that contribute absolutely nothing to, and in many cases even detract from, society. . . . Most mind-boggling of all, it's been cl…

Jeez, did you have to write all that? Anyway, although I think you are focusing on the weakest part of Greenspan's argument - the point where he comes closest to bitterness - I was wondering if you'd like to invest $20,000 in my new venture. I'd like to sell crack heroin to junkies in Detroit. I'm sure as a fellow champion of guilt-free founder consciences, you will support my endeavour as I give gangbangers the chan…

Careful, you'll bring the HN grellas lovers down on you. While I always despair at his inability to say something succinctly, he generally always makes an excellent point.

Facebook provides an excellent service to most people in the world and it does so at a level that your $20,000 cannot buy. While we as a more discerning social customer may see it as extremely low value, the production values are actually extremely high. I always think of my national rag the Sun in these instances, it's utter trash, but they really worked hard on making it extremely good trash.

Alas for the article, to be honest the whole thing reads of bitterness, not unjustified if we are looking at 'justice'. But Zuck is a complete $&!t, and an extremely lucky one at that, but in business that's just the way it works. Moaning about it is futile. The only way to end up playing at that level is probably ending up being a complete $&!t as well. There are few big founders who haven't done very dodgy things in their time.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#104

Post by Apocryphon »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #81
grellas wrote: post #77

Institutional investors made the mistake - again, and again, and again - of validating Mark's duplicitousness by pouring literally billions of dollars into his company, and then billions more into startups seeking to emulate it. Some of their investments created out of thin air industries that contribute absolutely nothing to, and in many cases even detract from, society. . . . Most mind-boggling of all, it's been cl…

Jeez, did you have to write all that? Anyway, although I think you are focusing on the weakest part of Greenspan's argument - the point where he comes closest to bitterness - I was wondering if you'd like to invest $20,000 in my new venture. I'd like to sell crack heroin to junkies in Detroit. I'm sure as a fellow champion of guilt-free founder consciences, you will support my endeavour as I give gangbangers the chan…

Given the current popularity of certain cable serial dramas, your proposal has excellent mindshare.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#105

Post by brc »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #85
brooktree wrote: post #23

Regardless of Greenspan's own character or his particular situation, he gives us a peek at the facts, which others are so quick to ignore. I think there will be poetic justice in this story. Because the web is much bigger than Zuckerberg, or Facebook or even Google. The world is still getting online. It's early yet. But what Zuckerberg has done, how he has carried himself in the presence of enormous luck, he cannot e…

Sir, I like the cut of your jib.

It's jib - as in the the front sail of a sailboat ahead of the mast. The saying is 'I like the cut of your jib' in that the way the sails are set determines both direction and style of sailing.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#106

Post by ryanmolden »

philiac wrote: post #93
ryanmolden wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the greatest con of all was likely in reference to this line: He may, in fact, be the greatest con of all time, having effectively convinced an entire nation, including the President of the United States, to believe in his extremist philosophy of radical openness. It isn't clear if getting someone to believe in your 'extremist philosophy of radical openness' is necessarily a con, unless of course you yourse…

"It isn't clear if getting someone to believe in your 'extremist philosophy of radical openness' is necessarily a con, unless of course you yourself don't believe in it and/or are doing so only in furtherance of some other interest which you are obscuring." I do believe this is what Greenspan was getting at.

There is some delicious irony in the embarrassment that is likely caused by Aaron posting these conversations. You know, being 'radically open'.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#107

Post by philwelch »

spitx wrote: post #69
baddox wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do you know about the CEO of Walmart? Do you trust him or her with all your personal shopping history? What about your apartment's building manager? Do you trust him or her to not have hidden cameras in your apartment? How much do you trust the head of state of your country? Do you trust him or her with the almost limitless amount of your personal information that may have been collected?

False equivalency. All over false equivalency. Walmart isn't a service. Walmart doesn't have access to your most intimate information like Facebook does. Heck millions of Virgin Mobile accounts have been compromised. But the potential damage isn't even in the same order of magnitude of something (hypothetically) going foul at FB, either owing to deliberate policy or accidentally. Same with JetBlue with passenger data…

> Walmart doesn't have access to your most intimate information like Facebook does.

Really? All Facebook knows is what I tell it; a mixture of truth and lies. Walmart knows what I buy from Walmart, which is potentially everything. They know when I'm getting fatter or when I'm losing weight; they know when I'm buying condoms and when I'm not; they know what I eat, what I read, whether I have pets, what kind of pets I have, and they can data mine me a hundred ways to figure out everything else. Facebook doesn't actually know anything I care much about keeping private. Walmart knows a lot more.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#108

Post by lifeisstillgood »

corporalagumbo wrote: post #97
dmansen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what he meant. Ugh.

I think the point that his rousing hand-waving passes conveniently (and at great length) over is that the internet is a novel medium and legal ideas about what is and is not ethical business practice are very poorly defined if they are defined at all. For instance at what point can we argue that the rights of Facebook users and the "stickyness" of the service should limit the autonomy of Facebook as an independent co…

I am a big proponant of nationalising the services that should be - see the total farce over UK rail networks for example.

I strongly suspect most countries will put in place some forms of regulation or nationalisation over IP connectivity to the house - but once connected the very DNA of the Internet means that such monopolies are as trivially bypassable as any service provider has ever been.

Myspace is probably the best counter example to this threat there can be. And it also cost Rupert Murdoch 1/2 billion so there was a silver lining.

Re: The Lost Chapter

#109

Post by corporalagumbo »

mattmanser wrote: post #103
corporalagumbo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeez, did you have to write all that? Anyway, although I think you are focusing on the weakest part of Greenspan's argument - the point where he comes closest to bitterness - I was wondering if you'd like to invest $20,000 in my new venture. I'd like to sell crack heroin to junkies in Detroit. I'm sure as a fellow champion of guilt-free founder consciences, you will support my endeavour as I give gangbangers the chan…

Careful, you'll bring the HN grellas lovers down on you. While I always despair at his inability to say something succinctly, he generally always makes an excellent point. Facebook provides an excellent service to most people in the world and it does so at a level that your $20,000 cannot buy. While we as a more discerning social customer may see it as extremely low value, the production values are actually extremely…

I just don't understand why HN readers are so eager to paint Greenspan as a whiner and Zuckerberg as a rightful victor, as if that's the only thing worth saying about this whole commotion. It seems like a very dim view of human potential to me - winning is all that counts, if being a shit means you win, good on ya, and anyone that challenges that is just a whiner.

After all, Greenspan doesn't say that M -shouldn't- have been successful - he does not argue with moral absolutes (or maybe he does and I need to re-read the piece). He argues that eventually that sort of shitty behaviour will catch up with you, no matter what, even if you are the CEO of Facebook. Like I've said in other comments, it sounds like a warning.

Plus shouldn't HN readers be interested in more than just raw victory? If you view the modern tech world as a zero-sum arena, I feel bad for you son. Modern tech is about collaboration, synergy, and finding an approach that authentically makes sense for you in relation to what others are doing. This bloodthirsty power stuff is just a juvenile phase.

(NB: not to take away from all of that Zuck has clearly accomplished at Facebook; its had a huge and rightful impact on the world and our lives.)

Re: The Lost Chapter

#110

Post by corporalagumbo »

brc wrote: post #105
corporalagumbo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sir, I like the cut of your jib.

It's jib - as in the the front sail of a sailboat ahead of the mast. The saying is 'I like the cut of your jib' in that the way the sails are set determines both direction and style of sailing.

Thanks for that.
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