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RTO: WTAF

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Re: RTO: WTAF

#101

Post by thefz »

mft_ wrote: post #13

I think there are three alternative hypotheses the article misses from its list: * Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person; being reduced to equally-sized thumbnail videos on Teams doesn't feed this need. * Real estate: some companies have financial commitments (e.g. long-term leases, owned buildings) to large office buildings which need to be justified; selling or ending the lease early might refl…

> * Extroverts: some people just prefer to be in an office, surrounded by and interacting with lots of people, rather than sitting at home in relative isolation. (I'm definitely not one of them, but I have good friends who are like this.)

You know what, since the dawn of work - it's always been the extroverted way. Introverts suffered through. Now that the tide has changed, let the extroverts suffer too, it's their turn. We have done our part.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#102

Post by benterix »

bonoboTP wrote: post #26

It bears repeating that if you're a tech worker in the US, your greatest asset is your physical location. You might think you like remote jobs, but you will have competition from South America, Western and Eastern Europe, etc. as well as people in the US living in flyover states in the middle of nowhere with cheap rent. If the focus also shifts more to raw input-output task accomplishmentbas opposed to in person soci…

As a person working with Americans, if I may express my honest opinion, this is BS. Your advantage is the fact that you are professional, hard-working, are able to question the demands in a positive way, can communicate with American management more easily, live in the same time zone and in general you can get on with the rest of American team more easily. I would never say physical location is an asset (although I might be biased as I work for corporations that have multiple offices in various continents, for small startups it might be different).

Re: RTO: WTAF

#103

Post by benterix »

SR2Z wrote: post #66
bonoboTP wrote: post #26

It bears repeating that if you're a tech worker in the US, your greatest asset is your physical location. You might think you like remote jobs, but you will have competition from South America, Western and Eastern Europe, etc. as well as people in the US living in flyover states in the middle of nowhere with cheap rent. If the focus also shifts more to raw input-output task accomplishmentbas opposed to in person soci…

I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. I think that none of this will magically make it easier to raise money outside the US. There are obviously plenty of brilliant people outside the US. Unfortunat…

> an unfirable European

This is not true - most American companies hire contractors, usually through a local intermediary.

> with a statutory month off every year.

This is something work pondering about, really. Take step back, look at your life, and think a bit about this point, no matter if you're blue- or white-collar worker.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#104

Post by AnimalMuppet »

thefz wrote: post #99
SR2Z wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are. I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. I think that none of this will magically make it easier to raise money outside the US. There are obviously plenty of brilliant people outside the US. Unfortunat…

> I think that folks overseas aren't as capable of communicating with Americans as other Americans are I speak Italian, English and French. I speak English to you because it's the only language you know. We are not the same. > I think that American tech companies would prefer a motivated at-will employee at 3x the cost of an unfirable European with a statutory month off every year. We work to live, not the opposite.…

Fair enough, on both points. And yet, a tech company in the US may prefer someone who is US-style rather than Europe-style on the second point.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#105

Post by AnimalMuppet »

varispeed wrote: post #57
bonoboTP wrote: post #26

It bears repeating that if you're a tech worker in the US, your greatest asset is your physical location. You might think you like remote jobs, but you will have competition from South America, Western and Eastern Europe, etc. as well as people in the US living in flyover states in the middle of nowhere with cheap rent. If the focus also shifts more to raw input-output task accomplishmentbas opposed to in person soci…

The argument doesn’t hold water. Companies aren’t pushing RTO because they want to pay higher salaries to office-bound staff in expensive metros. If raw “input–output” and cheap labour were the only metric, they’d go fully remote, tap global markets, and slash payroll overnight. RTO is about control and optics, not cost optimisation. It’s management preference, real estate sunk costs, and the illusion of productivity…

I think there's an element of management incompetence, or at least lack of confidence. They're not confident that they know how to manage a bunch of remote workers.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#106

Post by AnimalMuppet »

us-merul wrote: post #62
varispeed wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument doesn’t hold water. Companies aren’t pushing RTO because they want to pay higher salaries to office-bound staff in expensive metros. If raw “input–output” and cheap labour were the only metric, they’d go fully remote, tap global markets, and slash payroll overnight. RTO is about control and optics, not cost optimisation. It’s management preference, real estate sunk costs, and the illusion of productivity…

It also turns remote work into a negotiated benefit, which may be preferred over actual raises.

Well, if we're going to negotiate, let's negotiate both ways. You want me in the office? Then I have to commute, and my time's not free. Are you going to pay me for my commute time?

Re: RTO: WTAF

#107

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mft_ wrote: post #13

I think there are three alternative hypotheses the article misses from its list: * Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person; being reduced to equally-sized thumbnail videos on Teams doesn't feed this need. * Real estate: some companies have financial commitments (e.g. long-term leases, owned buildings) to large office buildings which need to be justified; selling or ending the lease early might refl…

And extroverts are probably a high proportion of upper management.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#108

Post by mft_ »

gruez wrote: post #36
mft_ wrote: post #13

I think there are three alternative hypotheses the article misses from its list: * Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person; being reduced to equally-sized thumbnail videos on Teams doesn't feed this need. * Real estate: some companies have financial commitments (e.g. long-term leases, owned buildings) to large office buildings which need to be justified; selling or ending the lease early might refl…

>selling or ending the lease early might reflect badly on leadership. Why? If the lease was signed before the pandemic that gives a very easy "out". It's not like anyone could have predicted the pandemic and the associated shift to WFH. If for whatever reason they signed afterwards, that's just them being dumb.

For example, the last big company I worked for had invested in building out its campus with multiple new flagship bespoke buildings, including during (and not reconsidered due to) the pandemic. It would be quite difficult and/or a loss of corporate face to sell/lease them out.

I'm not saying it's rational, but that doesn't mean it's not sometimes an influential factor.

Re: RTO: WTAF

#109

Post by mft_ »

swiftcoder wrote: post #17
mft_ wrote: post #13

I think there are three alternative hypotheses the article misses from its list: * Ego: senior people need to be seen and respected in person; being reduced to equally-sized thumbnail videos on Teams doesn't feed this need. * Real estate: some companies have financial commitments (e.g. long-term leases, owned buildings) to large office buildings which need to be justified; selling or ending the lease early might refl…

> Ego We can give them bigger/more-prominent zoom portraits by seniority. Should make everyone happy. > Real estate Probably shouldn't still be gambling company finances on real estate, 5 years after a pandemic forced us all to go remote. > Extroverts Great! We can put all the extroverts back in the glass fishbowl, while the rest of us do actual work from home

> We can give them bigger/more-prominent zoom portraits by seniority. Should make everyone happy.

This would be hilarious, from a malicious compliance sort of angle...

Re: RTO: WTAF

#110

Post by Esophagus4 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #105
varispeed wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument doesn’t hold water. Companies aren’t pushing RTO because they want to pay higher salaries to office-bound staff in expensive metros. If raw “input–output” and cheap labour were the only metric, they’d go fully remote, tap global markets, and slash payroll overnight. RTO is about control and optics, not cost optimisation. It’s management preference, real estate sunk costs, and the illusion of productivity…

I think there's an element of management incompetence, or at least lack of confidence. They're not confident that they know how to manage a bunch of remote workers.

As a management, I understand that this is the perception… but it’s not remotely true. It astounds me how often this is repeated. It’s almost more of a conspiracy theory at this point. “Those evil incompetent managers are just so stupid they have to justify their existence by having people in office.”

RTO is not about watching people in their seats all day to see who is productive. It’s about getting talented people to sit next to each other, as there is significant benefit to that. It builds culture and internal networks (which helps attrition rates, especially for junior employees) and that helps junior employees learn from senior employees. They need that hands-on feedback from seniors, minute to minute. It helps people across teams work together, as in remote land, most communication is intra team only.

It’s not about input->output. It’s about building a long term company culture and employees who grow with it. It’s about building a system where communication and collaboration have less friction.

Can this be done remotely? Maybe, by a few companies who are very intentional and do it well. But remote is very difficult to do well.

If it were just about input->output, I’d offshore everything and save a ton of money.

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