Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How can I influence others without manipulating them?

andiroberts.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 232 posts

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#101

Post by eviks »

lukan wrote: post #75
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

> Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat

have you never seen a hill or a hole?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#102

Post by motorest »

vdqtp3 wrote: post #58
motorest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. No, it is not the definition of integrity. If you opt to double-down on positions you held in spite of being presented to evidence that contradicts or refutes your prior beliefs, the behavior you are displaying is opposite of integrity, s…

Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point. I suspect that sort of thing is what GP meant.

> Rape is wrong. It doesn't matter what your evidence or positions or logic are, you will not sway me on that point.

Do you believe that you were already presented with evidence that compelled you to change your personal position on rape, and the only reason you didn't changed your position in spite of that was your stubbornness to stick with them in spite of you feeling your belief was already refuted?

Or does the rationale still holds?

I think you tried very hard to find a moral argument to try to refute the argument on integrity, but you unwittingly just proved the point.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#103

Post by monkey_monkey »

lukan wrote: post #98
sejl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How funny, this comments screams to me that you have not argued with a genuine flat earther. Debates with them are not remotely interesting; they're constantly reaching to religion, magic, and Jewish control. Find someone grounded who also enjoys debating and it's a fun topic to cover, however.

Well, the main thing I learned in such debates is, you are free to believe what you want I don't feel responsible for grounding the facts you somehow believe in. But in another mood, I might have shared links to certain Telegram groups, or connect you with some people I know personally. They would be eager to enlighten you, if you are in for that.

What does this even mean?

Do you think the earth is flat? Who the fuck cares about Telegram groups in this context?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#105

Post by kruffalon »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #53
chucksmash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's all well and good, but when you have to put your trust in someone and person A believes "it's wrong to cheat people" and person B has a whole framework for thinking about the problem on a case by case basis, you just go with A, right?

The older I get the more I hear the exact opposite of what people say when they claim anything absolute about themselves. It's working out well. "I'm an empath." "I don't like drama." "I never cheat people." "I value honesty."

So, what you are saying is that you found the fountain of youth and are getting younger?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#106

Post by jbs789 »

treetalker wrote: post #4

I'll respond to the title instead of the article. As an attorney, I've found that the best persuasion is the removal of impediments and friction standing between the person you hope to influence and what they want to do in the first place. Most other tactics amount to force or deceit ("manipulation").

This connects with me. More about helping people do what they already have in mind. Connecting with people and finding overlapping interests rather than a manipulation mindset.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#107

Post by blueflow »

lukan wrote: post #75
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

> That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation

It does! Sit on a beach near a harbour and watch how far you can see the waves and ships. Aristotle did this and came to the same conclusion.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#108

Post by lukan »

monkey_monkey wrote: post #103
lukan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the main thing I learned in such debates is, you are free to believe what you want I don't feel responsible for grounding the facts you somehow believe in. But in another mood, I might have shared links to certain Telegram groups, or connect you with some people I know personally. They would be eager to enlighten you, if you are in for that.

What does this even mean? Do you think the earth is flat? Who the fuck cares about Telegram groups in this context?

It means I debated very often with weird people and the proof that I did, is that I don't feel the need to make the poster above believe, that I actually did that.

(Otherwise I would have shared links where you can find me debating the topic at length with various people)

Because indeed, most flat earthers are immune to reason as they are in the realm of irrationality. So at some point someone needs to accept that and that helped my attitude towards my need to correct wrong information in people in general.

And if you believe now, I am a flat earther, because I said I discovered some flat earthers that act somewhat scientific sometimes and are open for arguments, well, so be it.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#109

Post by cessen »

I had a manager once who argued that there was no difference between influence and manipulation. He was one of the most manipulative people I've ever worked with, and working with him was very obnoxious and stressful. I suspect most people who argue that there is no difference are either very manipulative people trying to justify their own behavior, or are people who have been taken in by such people.

IMO people get too caught up in the words "influence" and "manipulate", and effectively start arguing over definitions (whether they realize that's what they're doing or not). I don't think any of that matters.

What matters is whether you're behaving like a decent human being who respects and cares about others. The negative things that people associate with the word "manipulate" are things like trickery, dishonesty, etc. As long as you are approaching others with respect, authenticity, honesty, and a reasonable amount of humility, then I don't think you need to worry about whether your influence counts as "manipulation" or not: you'll be avoiding the aspects of "manipulation" that make it a bad thing.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#110

Post by latexr »

zmgsabst wrote: post #95
immibis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most significant evidence that the earth is flat is that you can just look out your window and it's obviously flat, but all the round-earth evidence is complicated sciencey stuff. If someone doesn't believe in complicated sciencey stuff, they just won't believe you, and they'll conclude they have evidence and you don't. At what point do you just walk away from the argument?

That one is easy because it’s directly refuted by lived experience — eg: There’s mountains outside my window, so… not flat. Do you have evidence that it’s flat? — what do you even mean by “flat” when I can see ripples in it?

They mean “flat” in the sense of “straight” (i.e. not curved), the same way a sheet of sandpaper is flat despite being rugged. There are plenty of simple ways to disprove Flat Earth theories, but you’ll never be able to convince anyone by refuting their arguments with something which clearly misunderstands what they’re trying to say.
Post reply on HN