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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

bessstillman.substack.com

101–110 of 227 posts

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#101
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe atheists are incapable of recognizing the significance of children or of caring about them?

No, I don't believe that. I valued children just as much when I was an atheist as when I became religion. What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not. I work in FAANG and previously in finance, so my peers are people who can certainly afford kids and are positioned to take care of them - and yet literally most are…

>What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not.

Do all of your religious friends subscribe to the same religion?

If so, does this religion proscribe having children and raising families as a necessary, or desired, component of the faith or community?

Because you could be confusing religion and culture here. Secular values often abrogate traditional gender and sexual norms, so secular people may not feel compelled to "be fruitful and multiply." I wouldn't ascribe that to lack of religion per se so much as not being affected by the same cultural pressures. After all, plenty of theists are essentially forced into marriage and children because it's what's expected, not because it's what they want.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#102
I came across this when I was going through the death of a parent. It helped me process and manage grief, I hope it helps others, and feel it is relevant to share in this thread.

"Alright, here goes. I'm old. What that means is that I've survived (so far) and a lot of people I've known and loved did not. I've lost friends, best friends, acquaintances, co-workers, grandparents, mom, relatives, teachers, mentors, students, neighbors, and a host of other folks. I have no children, and I can't imagine the pain it must be to lose a child. But here's my two cents.

I wish I could say you get used to people dying. I never did. I don't want to. It tears a hole through me whenever somebody I love dies, no matter the circumstances. But I don't want it to "not matter". I don't want it to be something that just passes. My scars are a testament to the love and the relationship that I had for and with that person. And if the scar is deep, so was the love. So be it. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are a testament that I can love deeply and live deeply and be cut, or even gouged, and that I can heal and continue to live and continue to love. And the scar tissue is stronger than the original flesh ever was. Scars are a testament to life. Scars are only ugly to people who can't see.

As for grief, you'll find it comes in waves. When the ship is first wrecked, you're drowning, with wreckage all around you. Everything floating around you reminds you of the beauty and the magnificence of the ship that was, and is no more. And all you can do is float. You find some piece of the wreckage and you hang on for a while. Maybe it's some physical thing. Maybe it's a happy memory or a photograph. Maybe it's a person who is also floating. For a while, all you can do is float. Stay alive.

In the beginning, the waves are 100 feet tall and crash over you without mercy. They come 10 seconds apart and don't even give you time to catch your breath. All you can do is hang on and float. After a while, maybe weeks, maybe months, you'll find the waves are still 100 feet tall, but they come further apart. When they come, they still crash all over you and wipe you out. But in between, you can breathe, you can function. You never know what's going to trigger the grief. It might be a song, a picture, a street intersection, the smell of a cup of coffee. It can be just about anything...and the wave comes crashing. But in between waves, there is life.

Somewhere down the line, and it's different for everybody, you find that the waves are only 80 feet tall. Or 50 feet tall. And while they still come, they come further apart. You can see them coming. An anniversary, a birthday, or Christmas, or landing at O'Hare. You can see it coming, for the most part, and prepare yourself. And when it washes over you, you know that somehow you will, again, come out the other side. Soaking wet, sputtering, still hanging on to some tiny piece of the wreckage, but you'll come out.

Take it from an old guy. The waves never stop coming, and somehow you don't really want them to. But you learn that you'll survive them. And other waves will come. And you'll survive them too. If you're lucky, you'll have lots of scars from lots of loves. And lots of shipwrecks."

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://np.reddit.com/r/Assist... | https://archive.today/CkLxT

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#103

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

Those folks are the ones who refuse to acknowledge and accept the fact that they were abused by family members while growing up, where those personality 'symptoms' are common. It is very well known that ADD and ADHD comes from abusive households. Nobody except psychologists and anyone in the mental health field would ever admit such failures in life. They will not accept the fact, and exaggeration and deflection of character faults into false medical diagnosis is what happens. Not very many doctors want to get screamed at by their patients (which would prove the doctor right) for telling them the truth of their own past, and besides, they're not even paid to tell them.

"Truth hurts, don't it" is a very true phrase. It's a very sick trend affecting Millennials and Gen Z alike, and contributes to other worse mental health and criminal outcomes.

It's not even new.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#104
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe atheists are incapable of recognizing the significance of children or of caring about them?

No, I don't believe that. I valued children just as much when I was an atheist as when I became religion. What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not. I work in FAANG and previously in finance, so my peers are people who can certainly afford kids and are positioned to take care of them - and yet literally most are…

Putting aside the question of whether your own experiences hold for the general population, you must consider why these opinions are so prevalent, either way. One might argue that religion doesn't teach 'values' so much as 'roles', and so people feel they must do these things, not for any significance or with little thought to possible negative repercussions, but simply because... well, that's just what you do, right? Find a partner, have kids, go to church. That's the lifestyle religion teaches. One might also argue that secular people aren't as intent on having kids because they're more willing to accept different lifestyles.

For what it's worth, krapp's comment is better written but is what I'm talking about here.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also stigmatize mental health care in the west, telling people to “suck it up” or “get over it”. I think this idea is ~10 years out of date. If anything, we now seem pathologize every behavior and personality quirk into a mental health issue. At least on social media, it's also trendy to have a mental health issue to the point that people will claim to have ADHD because they're easily distracted by their phones.…

I think for people over 50, I guess "Gen X" and older, this is still often true. I've never considered therapy or medical help for any way that I was "feeling" and certainly have had times of grief and loss and sadness in my life. In some of those moments, when peers or friends noticed it, the gist of their advice was to “suck it up” or “get over it”. I am also introverted, procrastinate, am not very organized, and a…

I tol am unfortunately also introverted, prone to procrastination and seem quite unable to keep my house as spotless as I would like

Do you have any advice for overcoming my problem with atleast procrastination (i suspect that it is probably causing the other two issues).

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#106

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

I know people like to blame social media and just "the kids these days" in general - but I think there's another reasonable, far more charitable explanation: it's a sort of overcorrection after those illnesses being very heavily stigmatized for practically ever. It's perhaps not ideal, but if a symptom of more people who truly have those illnesses being able to get help is a small portion of people using it as a fashion statement, that's a price I think we can pay. And I'm confident it will correct itself over time.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#107
I'd just like to clear up a misconception that people seem to have about mental healthcare. Getting a diagnosis isn't related to the 'severity' of the thing you're experiencing. But rather how you're dealing with it, and if it requires professional help to work through. Keyword being 'requires'.

Even if you grief a lot, if you're dealing with it yourself you will not get a diagnosis.

If grief makes you isolate yourself, stop working, start abusing alcohol or drugs, stop you from caring for you children, etc. Then there's a very real chance that this behavior could lead to more problems, making it in turn harder to regain positive mental health. In that case the person should get a diagnosis, which would then unlock treatment and therapy for them.

> The American Psychiatric Association describes “disordered grief,” also known as “prolonged grief,” as a loss that occurred at least one measly year ago for adults

Even though that might be true, it's an excellent example of why you can't just take the written word at face value if you're not well versed in the subject. In the mental health profession it's understood that everybody is going to be different from the norm. Only the treating psychologist can put the clients problem in the proper context to determine if a year is enough or not.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#108

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

I think you are misinterpreting what the author means with "medicalize". They aren't saying "require to be treated by a medical professional".

What they're saying is that as a culture, we reason about grief using the tools and concepts of the medical industry. Because it's part of our culture, this is so automatic that it's almost hard to conceive of any other way. But it is indeed a choice to describe grief as a sort of labeled pain which can be explored using falsifiable scientific experiments, is amenable to treatment by medical professionals, is a problem representing a delta between a "normal healthy human" and their current state, etc.

We could just as well have a culture that treats grief as a normal part of the human experience. We could consider a person currently grieving as exactly as healthy and normal as someone playing the saxophone. We could (and some do) consider that the most appropriate people to offer help for grief be spiritual counsellors.

I'm not saying we should handle grief differently. I'm just trying to point out that what the author's saying is that it's a cultural choice the way we present and work through it socially. (But, for what it's worth, I do think we should handle it in a less medical way.)

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#109
post #2

There is a problem with rigid medical definitions. There is a huge difference between the author of this, a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent (as I did earlier this year). Of course it will take her far longer to recover (if at all). I would guess her grief is not "disordered" though. As she says she functions - she works, she looks after he…

> There is a certain cowardice in how we deal with death in the contemporary west.

It's because we have a dearth of true elders right now.

Not in age, but in temperament and learning.

I got interested in story telling during COVID and managed to find a great author (K.M. Weiland) that went in deep on the archetypes of story.

Her hook was essentially: "What happens after the Hero's Journey/happily ever after?" And then she got real deep on her idea of the 6 phases of life. Her work is properly about how to write a plot, but man does it apply more broadly.

The pertinent one here is the 'Crone' stage of life [0]. You're no longer the 'King' of your little fief, you had to give up the power and make way for the next generation. But now what?

The journey of the Crone is essentially learning that Death is a part of Life, that Death is not Evil, Death is a Friend.

K.M. Weiland admits that less and less people ever make it through the stages as you go along.

But, I think right now in the West, we have a lot of boomers that never really progressed past the Hero stage, let alone the Queen or King stages. There should be more Crone and Mage people around, but the boomers were retarded in their development. Just look at RBG, Feinstein and Pelosi (to name but a few), grappling on to power like the Tyrants or Sorceresses (strong shadow archetypes of the Queen and King) and never letting go, to the classical harm of the kingdom/hearth that such stories tell.

Facing Death is hard, very hard. But is something that we all must do. Realizing that Death is not Evil, but a part of life, and one to be welcomed at times, that is something that very few of us can do.

[0] https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/archetypal-chara...

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#110
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to take away from the article, in the comments she states that her world is filled with the joy of new things with her new baby. She is doing as well as one can be for how much she loved Jake and how much she misses him. The author is extremely talented at isolating certain feelings and making you feel them with her. I wouldn't use this article as a diagnosis of anything but her writing talent.

> She is doing as well as one can be for how much she loved Jake and how much she misses him. Again, my point is that that statement is absolutely true and also does not preclude the notion that additional professional help may be warranted. I went on Prozac earlier this year after a conversation with my doctor that went, roughly: “I think you’ve got anxiety” “well yeah, look at the fucking world!” “…right.” Just bec…

Consider that the author may elect to this suffering as a testament to her love for her partner and as a way to memorialize what he meant to her.

If your partner died and the very next day a doctor said, "Here's a pill that will make you forget you were ever together and erase 100% of the pain. You'll feel amazing." Would you take it?

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