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US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

reuters.com

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Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#101

Post by Guvante »

crooked-v wrote: post #89
Guvante wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between enforcing the law (you can't bring workers here on a tourist visa) and raiding a factory putting everyone into jail. For the purposes of "was it a reasonable action" yes it is important to understand how the US has acted in the past.

In this case for at least some of those people there was no visa and no visa needed. South Koreans can make trips for business purposes to the US without any extra paperwork as long as it's under 90 days. It's true that what counts as 'business' and not 'work' has always been an ambiguous line, but given that the arrestees include executives who generally haven't been historically subject to this kind of treatment, I…

I am not trying to defend the actions on legal grounds.

I was merely using a steelman argument to attack the actions taken as inappropriate regardless of legality.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#102

Post by deepfriedchokes »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #50
neither_color wrote: post #23

One thing missing from the public debate and I havent seen any writers I follow bring up: When US companies first started outsourcing their factories to Korea, China, and other countries, they were doing the exact same thing. They were just flying engineers over on business and tourist visas to jump start factories and train the workers. Typically only long term workers bothered getting bona fide employee visas abroa…

I practice a niche physical activity with <1000 practitioners in North America. It is all volunteer based and nobody makes money off of it. Seminars are distributed across US and Canada with instructor level people routinely crossing the border. If you tell the border guards on either side that you're teaching, you get immediately deported.

What’s the activity?

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#103

Post by hilsdev »

AngryData wrote: post #46
hilsdev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor cost of food is near the bottom of the price factors.

Yeah but you still need people to do it and paying a bit better is not going to get an immediate response of many tens of thousands of workers to quit their jobs to do seasonal and migratory work across multiple states living out of vans and campers with no insurance and increased workload and injury rate. Many crops are just going to rot, output will be lower, and prices will still rise. At some point years down the…

We can quadruple the farm worker day rate and it would not significantly impact consumer prices. The floor price of unskilled labor is mostly a function of its market value. Increasing the labor pool via immigration decreases the value of the labor.

I too would like to see farm laborers have more comfortable lives

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#104

Post by tootie »

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #31
tootie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That presumes that this kind of enforcement is a net positive and I'm pretty convinced it isn't. The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is essentially arbitrary. Illegal immigration is not a crime of morality, it's basically one of economics. The legal framework theoretically is designed to produce an optimal outcome for the health and wealth of the nation and presently it is not doing that at all. We…

Most lines are. It is a line we agreed on as a society. Just for a quick comparison, 21 is a legal drinking age in US ( going after less incendiary example just to prove a point ). But, and here is my subtle point, either those are real lines or there are not. If they are real, they should be enforced and if they are not, they should be nulled. Before I offer a reflexive response, I think it is worth to task a simple…

Most crimes are not arbitrary. Anything that causes or risks injury or loss of property make up that vast majority of crimes. Drinking age or driving age are proxies for public safety. Those lines are already fuzzy and breaching them is not a major offense.

We haven't had a serious discussion about actual immigration policy for a while and a lot of agreed upon rules are being tossed out. Trump's enforcement includes summary dissolution of refugee status, summary revocation of visas and green cards, arrests at court houses and a general disregard for due process. There is a big headline strategic objective of fighting crime and the current enforcement is not even pretending that this is a serious goal.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#105

Post by hilsdev »

margalabargala wrote: post #16
hilsdev wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor cost of food is near the bottom of the price factors.

Directly yes but there are knock on effects. What you say is true only when labor is not scarce. The consequences of having insufficient labor is a large price factor. If you can only harvest 30% of your crop and the rest rots in the field because there's no one to pick it, that is outsized.

If you paid a lot more there would be more people to pick it

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#106

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 »

tootie wrote: post #104
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most lines are. It is a line we agreed on as a society. Just for a quick comparison, 21 is a legal drinking age in US ( going after less incendiary example just to prove a point ). But, and here is my subtle point, either those are real lines or there are not. If they are real, they should be enforced and if they are not, they should be nulled. Before I offer a reflexive response, I think it is worth to task a simple…

Most crimes are not arbitrary. Anything that causes or risks injury or loss of property make up that vast majority of crimes. Drinking age or driving age are proxies for public safety. Those lines are already fuzzy and breaching them is not a major offense. We haven't had a serious discussion about actual immigration policy for a while and a lot of agreed upon rules are being tossed out. Trump's enforcement includes…

Thank you for being a voice of reason. Zero disagreement on the need to have that discussion. I am certainly not, lets say ecstatic, about how the current environment shapes up. Unfortunately for me, I don't have the capacity to influence it in any serious way. I am basically a spectator.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#107

Post by margalabargala »

hilsdev wrote: post #105
margalabargala wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Directly yes but there are knock on effects. What you say is true only when labor is not scarce. The consequences of having insufficient labor is a large price factor. If you can only harvest 30% of your crop and the rest rots in the field because there's no one to pick it, that is outsized.

If you paid a lot more there would be more people to pick it

True!

And then the labor cost of food would no longer be near the bottom of the price factors.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#108

Post by tootie »

pessimizer wrote: post #28
tootie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That presumes that this kind of enforcement is a net positive and I'm pretty convinced it isn't. The distinction between legal and illegal immigration is essentially arbitrary. Illegal immigration is not a crime of morality, it's basically one of economics. The legal framework theoretically is designed to produce an optimal outcome for the health and wealth of the nation and presently it is not doing that at all. We…

> Illegal immigration is not a crime of morality, it's basically one of economics. Then why do you immediately shift into questions of moral judgement, and your moral judgement of how "welcoming" people should be? This politics is garbled. New immigrants lower the leverage of domestic workers, and the leverage of previous immigrants, by intention. The myth that they move on to become mandarins that are too good for t…

You're reading way too much into the word "welcome". I don't mean we should be more polite, just more intentional.

Data says immigration is generally good for the economy but certainly within some parameters. I don't think any data says immigrants hurt black Americans but please cite something besides your personal observation. It does seem pretty specious to blame the least powerful people in society for the downfall of the next least powerful and not the massive wealth concentration at the top. The fact that immigration is being demonized by the same crew who want to ban discussion of racism or diversity is not a coincidence.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#109

Post by pfannkuchen »

Guvante wrote: post #101
crooked-v wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case for at least some of those people there was no visa and no visa needed. South Koreans can make trips for business purposes to the US without any extra paperwork as long as it's under 90 days. It's true that what counts as 'business' and not 'work' has always been an ambiguous line, but given that the arrestees include executives who generally haven't been historically subject to this kind of treatment, I…

I am not trying to defend the actions on legal grounds. I was merely using a steelman argument to attack the actions taken as inappropriate regardless of legality.

I don’t have a strong opinion on the actions taken, I’m commenting specifically on the argument I was replying to. I see that hypocrisy critique in a lot of forms and I just don’t get it.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#110

Post by mcphage »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #92
zzzeek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [paraphrased] What's with this trend on HN ...painting US law enforcement as Nazis who get off on going after innocent people trying to get by? it's in the newspaper. A lot of us read it

Can you also process and think critically what you read in the papers?

> Can you also process and think critically what you read in the papers?

Can you?

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