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How can England possibly be running out of water?

theguardian.com

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Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#101

Post by komali2 »

sandbags wrote: post #34

As the article mentions, privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources. What the article doesn’t mention is that pre-privatisation a new reservoir was built every year up to about 1960 and then every few years until privatisation in 1992. So we are about 30 years behind in adding capacity to the system. This combined with the inadequate levels of i…

I was fascinated on my recent trip to the UK to learn how much of their infrastructure they'd privatized semi-recently. Trains, hm, well it kinda works in Japan so maybe not so bad, but, water and SEWAGE??? In what universe does it make sense to have one of the most critical infrastructure systems, the backbone of health for a city, participate in a marketplace? Insanity. Not to mention the fact that at the end of the day only a government could possibly have the ability and authority and budget to run new lines or the motivation to do maintenance. What's next, pay per poop?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#102

Post by kolektiv »

rlpb wrote: post #82
braza wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Water should never have been privatised. At least not without a framework for a national strategy for water. But one can make a very fair argument where you can have a strong regulatory framework to ensure investment goals, exit clauses, and penalties in case of missing goals, no?

That never happens because the appointed regulator has no incentive to efficiently and effectively regulate, either.

Particularly when, as in the case of UK water privatisation, there's a fairly convenient revolving door between the supposed regulator and the privatised water companies. Poacher turned entirely ineffective and rather friendly gamekeeper...

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#103

Post by krona »

tome wrote: post #84
sandbags wrote: post #34

As the article mentions, privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources. What the article doesn’t mention is that pre-privatisation a new reservoir was built every year up to about 1960 and then every few years until privatisation in 1992. So we are about 30 years behind in adding capacity to the system. This combined with the inadequate levels of i…

> privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources Why does privatisation mean that the government can't build infrastructure? I think the answer is more likely nimbyism than privatisation. I personally think it makes no sense to privatise infrastructure for which no competition can reasonably take place, and I'd include distribution networks of many…

Case in point, Thames Water has been trying to build a reservoir in Oxfordshire since 2006[1], but has only met resistance by the local planning authority and environmental campaigners (the two often working in concert when it comes to NIMBYism due to various statutory obligations placed on local authorities.)

A few months ago the government reclassified the project as Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project to allow Thames Water to to take the proposal out of the hands of the local authority, potentially allowing the project to go ahead. [2]

If it goes ahead as planned it will be the second largest reservoir in the UK.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abingdon_Reservoir [2] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9kp2d4d0vo

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#105

Post by tome »

seanalltogether wrote: post #90
sandbags wrote: post #34

As the article mentions, privatised water companies have built no new reservoir capacity and relied on drawing from rivers and other sources. What the article doesn’t mention is that pre-privatisation a new reservoir was built every year up to about 1960 and then every few years until privatisation in 1992. So we are about 30 years behind in adding capacity to the system. This combined with the inadequate levels of i…

The concept of reservoirs and emergency supply seems to be completely at odds with privatisation. What private company is going to spend loads of money to build deep reservoirs that are stressed only once every 5 or 10 years. None. They're going to reach for an immediate supply like a river or aquifer and then raise prices if those sources run low. It's insane to plan out infrastructure on the belief that private com…

I'm inclined to agree that privatisation is bad for long term planning, but the history of the Abingdon Reservoir proposal seems to be counter evidence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abingdon_Reservoir

Looks like Thames Water (a private company) proposed the development nearly 20 years ago, but it was turned down by the Environment Agency, a government body.

> Plans for a £1bn reservoir in Oxfordshire to supply more than eight million people over the next 25 years have been rejected by the government.

> Thames Water wants to build a site on four square miles of land near Abingdon to help ensure future demand is met.

> The bid went to a public inquiry but the secretary of state said there was "no immediate need" for such a site.

"Abingdon £1bn reservoir plan rejected by government"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-12651131

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#106

Post by komali2 »

tome wrote: post #99
PaulRobinson wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privatisation" does not preclude government investment in infrastructure. "Thatcherism" does, however. It is a warped [Ayn] Randian view of capitalism and those who drive it. State intervention into the machinery of capital, even when it comes to essential infrastructure, is considered a corrupting influence. Nobody able to change national policy within Downing Street or even ministries in Whitehall, at the time - o…

> Nobody able to change national policy within Downing Street or even ministries in Whitehall, at the time - or since - has had the gumption to say it's not working and we need to do something about it. Thatcher's been dead for 12 years and out of power for 35, so I'm not sure why it should take much gumption. All it needs is national leaders who believe in the flourishing of the country, and that that requires infra…

> Thatcher's been dead for 12 years and out of power for 35, so I'm not sure why it should take much gumption.

Reagan, Thatcher, all the same, and their ideology kept alive by neoliberals (basically every politician that isn't an out and out socialist or snidely toeing fascism) and the Chicago school of economics.

Find me a national leader that believing in the flourishing of the country (and all the people in it) and I'll find you an entire political apparatus in opposition to that in favor of the flourishing of Capital.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#107

Post by Beretta_Vexee »

As a reminder, the British water treatment system was privatised in the 1960s and has been a huge joke ever since. When they were still in the European Union, common environmental and health regulations prevented the worst from happening.

But as an example, one of the first actions taken after Brexit was to stop monitoring and treating sewage discharges into the English Channel.

- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62670623

- https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62626774

- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9kz8ydjpno

Another major success for the privatisation of services such as the postal service, railways and electricity in the UK.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#108

Post by tome »

komali2 wrote: post #106
tome wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody able to change national policy within Downing Street or even ministries in Whitehall, at the time - or since - has had the gumption to say it's not working and we need to do something about it. Thatcher's been dead for 12 years and out of power for 35, so I'm not sure why it should take much gumption. All it needs is national leaders who believe in the flourishing of the country, and that that requires infra…

> Thatcher's been dead for 12 years and out of power for 35, so I'm not sure why it should take much gumption. Reagan, Thatcher, all the same, and their ideology kept alive by neoliberals (basically every politician that isn't an out and out socialist or snidely toeing fascism) and the Chicago school of economics. Find me a national leader that believing in the flourishing of the country (and all the people in it) an…

> Find me a national leader that believing in the flourishing of the country

But I can't find one, that's the point.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#110

Post by arethuza »

secondcoming wrote: post #97
bbrks wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the default. You cannot buy a new house today without being on a meter. That is the default. It's just our housing stock being so old and decrepit, where nobody can be bothered updating anything even if it's provided for free by the utility companies, that the majority of houses simply do not have a water meter! There's a general sentiment that smart meters and metered water will make costs skyrocket or some…

Except in Scotland where your water charge is added to your council tax and so there are no water meters. I pay £190 per year for unlimited water.

Don't you also pay for waste water? My waste water charge here in Fife is quite a bit more than the water charge.
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