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Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

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101–110 of 125 posts

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#101

One can't have an informed opinion on this without witnessing how grading a college exam takes place, first hand. Grading a stack of blue books is a "just kill me now" brutal experience. A majority of cognitive effort is just finding the page for the next problem to grade, with finding the answer another delay; any programming language with this kind of access latency would stay a "one bus" language. So of course pro…

If learning is the goal, and we just learned that we need to do more work to provide an experience conducive to learning, then the cost for learning just increased.

First, its interesting to see a situation where a new technology INCREASED the cost of something.

    Grading a stack of blue books is a "just kill me now" brutal experience.
    When I had 200 linear algebra exams to grade at once
Second, this is alluding to one of the dimensions along which that cost is going to be born, staffing. If its too many papers to grade, then more staff are needed to grade them.

We're probably not going to get that, though, and instead the cost increases, the funding stays the same, so the quality will decline to compensate.

So it goes...

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#102

It's hard to have any substantial sympathy for the troubles of teaching private US college and university students. Given the absolutely wild increases in tuition, administrations should have massive resources to bring to bear to solving this and other problems. The reasons they don't feel more like excuses than legitimate explanations.

The wild increases in tuition are for the nameplate price, not the actual price paid by median students net of grants. See pg. 12 here: https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/Trends-College-P... Published tuition has gone up, but grant aid has matched it, making the net cost at 4-year public institutions to be flat, or even down slightly over the 10 year period. The same applies at private 4-year institutions, l…

Interesting. I'll have to dig into this more. Thanks for the links.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#103
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a math lab where you could go do your math homework and the majority of the student assistants were great. Same with the undergrad lab assistants in physics labs.

Writing labs exist. What’s the existence of tutoring and assistance have to do with anything?

The OP was saying that paid student proctors couldn’t possibly be caring. I pointed out that most of the student assistants in similar positions were in fact very caring.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#104

One can't have an informed opinion on this without witnessing how grading a college exam takes place, first hand. Grading a stack of blue books is a "just kill me now" brutal experience. A majority of cognitive effort is just finding the page for the next problem to grade, with finding the answer another delay; any programming language with this kind of access latency would stay a "one bus" language. So of course pro…

You make a great point here. The quality of the grader may be higher with an AI than a stressed out grad student.

It's long been known that a longer essay answer is more likely to get a higher grade. And yeah, having been a student and a stressed out grad student, after about the 20th exam, only length is the real signal of grade.

Other comments point out that with the prices of tuition these days, students should be expecting a lot higher quality of feedback (grading) than what they are getting at any random R1.

It really does seem that the University system (as opposed to the college-esque system) is broken and that the additional AI fears are just another log on the already collapsed bridge. We're getting over the wrong thing.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t have to be a book, it can be a cheap laptop without internet.

Probably someone will build and sell a dirt cheap laptop with nothing on it except a basic word processor for this purpose. It’s still a hard problem though. If the students have the laptops outside of the testing site, they can load cheating materials on them, or use them to smuggle questions and answers out if the test is used in multiple class sections. You realistically will not lock down a laptop students can ta…

Store in each classroom a custom-made rack for the laptops (with at least one laptop per seat plus backups). Distribute the laptops at the start of exams and collect them at the end.

The rack charges the laptops, streamlines distributing/collecting tests, prevents tampering, and reports defects. A professor uploads the test to their LMS and specifies the exam time-frame and location. Before the exam, the LMS transfers the test to the correct rack, which saves it to the laptops. After the exam, the rack loads the student responses and transfers them to the LMS for the correct class. Each laptop has a light under it whose color indicates whether it's in standby, waiting to be distributed (shortly before exam start), has a submitted test, or is malfunctioning (the rack periodically pings laptops in storage to verify they still work). Multiple professors can queue exams to the same location, in different time-frames, and the LMS and rack know when to prepare each test on the laptops.

The hard part is to implement this well. The rack's hardware and software must be reliable; nonetheless it will fail (hardware breaks), and exams get moved and rescheduled, so there must be a way to transfer tests to another classroom and time-slot. The laptops can have slightly less reliability, since there are backups; but failures can't be clustered, and if a laptop is transferred from another rack during an exam, it should download the destination rack's test and become active (so if one rack's backup laptops run out, laptops can be borrowed from other classrooms). The laptops must periodically backup in-progress tests using wifi or bluetooth, and if a laptop breaks during the exam, the student can resume their progress on another. Tests must be downloaded well before exam time, in case there are problems (laptops should be able to store and queue multiple tests). Laptops must handle exams that start late (up to the official exam end time) and end late (including overlapping the next exam's start time, in which case the next exam is loaded when the laptop is put back into the rack). The rack must absolutely not indicate that a laptop is ready with an exam if it's not; and (since tests are downloaded before exam time) nothing unique should happen at exam start time (to reduce last-minute surprises, and let a professor who isn't convinced take out a laptop and check that it's functional 15 minutes before). Last but certainly not least, the UI to submit tests and grade responses should be intuitive, simple (not overwhelming) yet powerful (can handle edge-cases like rescheduled tests, randomized tests, accommodations; or be extensible enough to support these features).

Despite all the above requirements I actually think such a product is feasible. Unfortunately, with firsthand experience of typical EdTech and academic bureaucracy (and I'm not a professor so I don't know the worst of it), I'm skeptical it would be adequate quality unless the company designing it is uniquely motivated and capable.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#106
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing labs exist. What’s the existence of tutoring and assistance have to do with anything?

The OP was saying that paid student proctors couldn’t possibly be caring. I pointed out that most of the student assistants in similar positions were in fact very caring.

I've done both – in my undergrad I staffed a drop-in help night for a required freshman comp class, and later on in grad school I made extra cash proctoring a "alternate testing center" for students needing retakes and ADA accommodations. I can see the comparison to drop-in homework help centers. But as a test proctor my job was to get out of the way of students as much as possible while keeping things quiet – I'm not sure it's worth idealizing as "caring".

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never stopped using them, with the exception of the pandemic year, when we were forced to run online exams. Why replace a system that generally works well with one that introduces additional potential problems?

Same here. Online instruction / learning can work for some people, and that's good. I don't understand how anyone ever thought that an online exam could be made secure. There's just no way to ensure that the person who registered for the course is the one taking the exam when you don't control anything about the hardware or location, when students have a wide variety of hardware that you must support, and any attempt…

Chiming in here just because I happen to have taken a handful of online-proctored certification exams through Pearson OnVUE recently.

The gist of it is that I think someone willing to put a lot of work in could probably cheat using the strategies you suggest, but it would be a pain. During your checkin you have to send a selfie, photos of the front and back of your photo ID, and four photos of the space you've prepared. You can't have any writing tools, written materials, or anything else that looks like a computer or screen in the area, and the machine you're on has to be single-screen. If the pre-test greeter or the proctor aren't satisfied with what they see they can ask you (via text and voice chat) to show them the room in real time via your webcam and may ask you to make changes or move things around to provide evidence that something in the room is not hiding mechanisms used to cheat. From that point on, your webcam and mic are on and live streaming to the proctor for the duration of the test; they don't say anything about assistive technologies on their end but I assume they are using eye tracking to look for instances of eyes wandering offscreen for a protracted period of time. The test environment software effectively "takes over your PC" during the test and I would imagine is pretty effective at detecting alternate/multiple display outputs etc.

There are probably scalability issues, but privacy is not an issue from the perspective of the proctor - you are effectively surrendering it by agreeing to take the test online, you could have gone to a test center instead.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably someone will build and sell a dirt cheap laptop with nothing on it except a basic word processor for this purpose. It’s still a hard problem though. If the students have the laptops outside of the testing site, they can load cheating materials on them, or use them to smuggle questions and answers out if the test is used in multiple class sections. You realistically will not lock down a laptop students can ta…

Store in each classroom a custom-made rack for the laptops (with at least one laptop per seat plus backups). Distribute the laptops at the start of exams and collect them at the end. The rack charges the laptops, streamlines distributing/collecting tests, prevents tampering, and reports defects. A professor uploads the test to their LMS and specifies the exam time-frame and location. Before the exam, the LMS transfer…

Or get a stack of dirt cheap blue books and pens.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#109
post #3

How do blue book exams translate to real world problems the students will encounter? Why not open book + AI use exams, because that's what students will have in their careers?

Because a tradeoff of relying on calculators means the average person can't do simple math on their own. It would be bad for society if a crutch for general thinking dulls those skills the same way calculators dulled home economics skills. In theory people could pull out a calculator at the grocery store but I've never seen it happen.

I don't know what you mean by "home economics", but to me, that encompasses things like balancing a checkbook and making a budget and taxes and understanding how savings and debt and compound interest works how to choose when to save and when to go into debt. The sort of money matters that apply to any schmuck trying to live in the world. The reason so many people lack those skills is that for the most part we don't teach them in high school. Calculators have nothing to do with it.

Thank god we still teach quadratic equations, complex numbers, hyperbolic trig functions, and geometric constructions though. I don't know what would become of the world if most people didn't understand those things when we set them loose in the world.

Re: Bring Back the Blue-Book Exam

#110

The commenters lamenting this trend presumably have not given a takehome assignment to college students in recent years. The problem is huge and in class tests are basically the only way to test if students are learning. Unfortunately this doesn't solve the problem of AI assisted cheating on in-class exams, which is shockingly prevalent these days at least in STEM settings.

I'm curious, how is AI assistance on an in class exam even possible? I can't picture how AI changed anything from, say, post-iPhone. i.e. I expect there to be holes in security re: bathroom breaks, but even in 2006 they confiscated cell phones during exams. I guess what I'm asking is, how did AI shift the status quo for in class exams over, say, Safari?

Why would anyone downvote this thoughtful question?
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