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Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

nadia.xyz

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Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#101

Post by uniq7 »

nickpinkston wrote: post #8

I kind of agree with Nadia's analysis of what's happening, but it's a fucking cursed reality. Here's hoping for a New New Sincerity to bring us back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_sincerity

As someone not familiar with the term, I don't really understand the concept, and Wikipedia's definition doesn't look specific enough:

> generally describes creative works that expand upon and break away from concepts of postmodernist irony and cynicism.

That basically refers to anything that is not irony and cynicism, isn't it?

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#102

Post by [deleted] »

keybored wrote: post #93
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

70–90% of people have functional object impermanence, and at least 50% have no inner dialogue no self awareness, no reflection. just impulse. me, me, me. blasting music in public, talking at max volume, slamming doors. taking 20 mins to use an ATM when it takes me 30 seconds. and so on.

A master Buddhist meditator deep in meditation might also have no inner dialogue. I don’t really get the significance of this No Inner Dialogue meme.

[deleted]

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#103

Post by netsharc »

arkey wrote: post #95
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

> people who play music/video aloud on public transport But that's not being authentic, that's being plain rude, and there should be a difference. You can be authentic and still respect boundaries and be considerate towards other people. And on the other side, if being rude is your form of authenticity, then you're not authentic, you're just another rude person, probably following a specific type of common behaviour.

> You can be authentic and still respect boundaries and be considerate towards other people.

From the point of view of the douche: why should they do that, for what gain? I suppose if they care about social cohesion they'd care, but on the flip side, people nowadays can seem to violate social norms and still get through life just fine, in the old days they might suffer if society shunned them.

Makes me think of the cafe sign that listed prices: "Coffee $5; A coffee please: $3; Good day, I would like a coffee please: $1", being pleasant helps when doing business as well, people will even avoid doing business with you if you're unpleasant (except maybe if your soup is really really good). Maybe the "loneliness epidemic" means that people are developing a tolerance to the unavailability of pleasant social interactions.

Now it makes me think maybe the Black Mirror social scoring ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcspUD0kF7g ) is a useful way to punish douches after all.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#104

Post by netsharc »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #4

The implicit assumption of this article is that ideas approved by current members of community are good and ones expressed by the "shameless" outsider are bad. This would, for example, automatically invalidate Pride movement without considering merits of it's goals. It would be more fair to say that regardless of merit of ideas, stating them directly and forcefully despite community pushback can be a valid strategy t…

I don't think that's the implicit assumption. She ends with:

> But what I do know is when I see my peers rolling their eyes at someone or deriding them for being “shameless”, there’s a good chance that, instead of writing them off, we should examine their actions a bit more closely.

What about Donald Trump shamelessly bragging about sexual assault? Incidentally he even has "shame" and is trying to disassociate himself from Epstein - so, it seems he still needs some social acceptance, but that's a curious point about LGBTQ and shame, because many cultures have made these things something bad and to be ashamed about - although I wonder where they've come from, homosexuality wasn't a big deal in Ancient Greece, and they were even the kind where adult men had relations with adolescent boys.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#105

Post by pyman »

rao-v wrote: post #5

This generally is a version of what economics and game theory knows as countersignalling. A classic paper is “Too Cool for School” https://host.kelley.iu.edu/riharbau/cs-randfinal.pdf Always worth pondering when it works, and when, for whom, and how it fails.

I'd argue that shamelessness and countersignalling are different things but share the same foundation: confidence.

Shamelessness is acting without embarrassment and countersignalling is deliberately downplaying because you're so confident you don't need to prove yourself.

Using the example from the article, another person who comes to mind besides Paris Hilton is Trump. He uses countersignalling as a strategic tool, and sloppiness as a Swiss knife. The followers of both Paris and Trump interpret that sloppiness as confidence and authenticity, which is why it's so effective. And to pull off being deliberately sloppy, you need to be shameless.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#106

Post by woooooo »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #66
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

> trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless.

Speak for yourself, its at least satisfying. Insult their choice of music and provide suggestions for what they should play instead.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#107

Post by endoblast »

Doubling down and doubling down on some feeling (or lack of feeling) repeatedly isn't merely a strategy. It is the selling of ones's soul. There's no one left inside by the end of it, just a shell, with no creative power or freedom.

Don't envy them!

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#109

Post by samrus »

uniq7 wrote: post #101
nickpinkston wrote: post #8

I kind of agree with Nadia's analysis of what's happening, but it's a fucking cursed reality. Here's hoping for a New New Sincerity to bring us back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_sincerity

As someone not familiar with the term, I don't really understand the concept, and Wikipedia's definition doesn't look specific enough: > generally describes creative works that expand upon and break away from concepts of postmodernist irony and cynicism. That basically refers to anything that is not irony and cynicism, isn't it?

Like anything in culture and art, its opaque if you dont know the context, because its all a long conversation where everything is a repsonse to something before. This i feel is a response to how irony and cynicism (which were responses to dogmatic cult like obedience) get tiring and at some point people want sincerity rather than just poking fun at thing

You know how people now hate the "umm that just happened" style of comedy writing? Its basically thay backlash. People dont want quippy remarks and tearing things down, they was genuine appreciation for things

I feel if we think about it more it might have a relarion to shamelessness. But im not so sure. Shamelessness seems to be opposite of cynicism by itself

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#110

Post by andy99 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #66
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

The music thing is, I think, a related phenomenon I'll call the demolition man effect. Most people now are so weak and nonconfrontational that someone willing to break social norms can just walk all over them. This is because nobody wants to stand up for themselves or more fundamentally rock the boat.

The shamelessness thing is similar but fundamentally different in that it gets a following. Everyone thinks the kid/boomer without headphones is an ass, they just don't say it.

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