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Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

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Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#101

Post by yakz »

celeritascelery wrote: post #97
hypeatei wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense isn't saying "oh there's no ID required at the polls? Illegals must be tipping elections", it's recognizing that there are armies of people auditing these elections each cycle. Irregularities are caught and people challenge results in court all the time. In practice, if you tried to commit voter fraud, I think you'd find it very hard to accomplish (especially if you're trying to change the outcome) Even…

If ID is required, then your whole “Illegals must be tipping elections" argument just goes away. People keep making this debate in the US of “we need ID to prevent election fraud” vs “we can’t have ID required because ID can be hard to obtain”. It’s just silly. If you take a step back and make it easier to get an ID than the whole things resolves itself. The pro-ID people are happy Because only registered voters can…

The lawmakers that demand ID for voting also work to reduce access to ID. The most obvious way is just closing facilities that issue IDs, but also through fees and documentation requirements.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#102

Post by Freedom2 »

celeritascelery wrote: post #97
hypeatei wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense isn't saying "oh there's no ID required at the polls? Illegals must be tipping elections", it's recognizing that there are armies of people auditing these elections each cycle. Irregularities are caught and people challenge results in court all the time. In practice, if you tried to commit voter fraud, I think you'd find it very hard to accomplish (especially if you're trying to change the outcome) Even…

If ID is required, then your whole “Illegals must be tipping elections" argument just goes away. People keep making this debate in the US of “we need ID to prevent election fraud” vs “we can’t have ID required because ID can be hard to obtain”. It’s just silly. If you take a step back and make it easier to get an ID than the whole things resolves itself. The pro-ID people are happy Because only registered voters can…

> Every other country can do it, why not the US?

American exceptionalism is a real thing, unfortunately. And what I've found is that when confronted with a flaw or aspect of their society that could be improved, Americans tend to work backwards from the problem and try to explain away the problem, while inventing ridiculous hypotheticals for why other countries implementations won't work.

See: this thread and voter ID, any kind of firearm laws, gerrymandering, lack of public transport, etc.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#103

Post by hypeatei »

celeritascelery wrote: post #97
hypeatei wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common sense isn't saying "oh there's no ID required at the polls? Illegals must be tipping elections", it's recognizing that there are armies of people auditing these elections each cycle. Irregularities are caught and people challenge results in court all the time. In practice, if you tried to commit voter fraud, I think you'd find it very hard to accomplish (especially if you're trying to change the outcome) Even…

If ID is required, then your whole “Illegals must be tipping elections" argument just goes away. People keep making this debate in the US of “we need ID to prevent election fraud” vs “we can’t have ID required because ID can be hard to obtain”. It’s just silly. If you take a step back and make it easier to get an ID than the whole things resolves itself. The pro-ID people are happy Because only registered voters can…

I'm not sure if you've ever voted, but States without ID requirements (about 15 of them total) don't just let you walk in and cast a ballot anonymously. If you were trying to commit fraud, you'd need to know a combination of things about the person you're pretending to be and sign the poll book or an affidavit[0]. Now try scaling that process up enough to change the outcome... you can't.

Your assumptions about lack of ID = easy fraud is misguided.

> Every other country can do it, why not the US?

Elections are handled by the States themselves and so trying to tackle this on a federal level through the executive or Congress probably wouldn't go over very well considering it'd go against the constitution[1] (although that doesn't seem to be that big of a problem these days)

0: https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/voter-verificat...

1: https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S4-C1-2/...

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#104

Post by simonsarris »

buerkle wrote: post #8
docdeek wrote: post #6

It is strange that showing ID to vote is controversial in the US and that providing basic ID to citizens for free to allow them to vote is a problem that seems difficult to solve (or want to solve). My anecdote: I am an EU citizen living in another EU country. As such, I am permitted to vote in local and European elections. When I moved to my current village I registered with the local town hall online. I sent a scan…

Showing ID to vote wouldn't be controversial in the US if states made it easy to obtain a valid ID for the purpose. But states routinely use it as a backdoor mechanism to prevent people from voting.

In what state is getting an ID difficult?

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#105

Post by triceratops »

samdoesnothing wrote: post #100
triceratops wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the arrests and charges? If it's that bad we should see some people in jail by now.

[flagged]

Is it? Walk us through your "write a fake name" technique. How does it work?

Does walk into a polling location and say they're ? What happens if has already voted? Or shows up later? The poll workers will say "But you already voted". That should immediately result in a criminal investigation. If it doesn't, why the hell not? If it does, there should be numbers so what are they? This is a serious crime.

Or is the claim that a non-citizen fraudulently gets on the voter roll as a citizen? If so, how? Forged birth certificate? Passport? All of them had perfect forgeries? No one got caught? It's a bit far-fetched. Again, where are the numbers?

And finally, what's the point? What's the incentive for a non-citizen to commit such a serious crime? Our elected representatives rarely do anything we think is useful. Spreading the idea that voter fraud is easy or widespread, without evidence, is corrosive to democracy.

By all means require id to vote. It's a great idea. But also ensure that everyone who is eligible to vote can easily get id.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#106

Post by triceratops »

samdoesnothing wrote: post #28
tastyface wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

> it's pretty obvious that without any need to prove who you are there is going to be plenty of voter fraud

It's not obvious at all. People mostly hate voting. Nearly half the people who are eligible to vote don't vote at all.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#107

Post by vlovich123 »

gruez wrote: post #66
frakt0x90 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an excellent documentary by Channel 5 (formerly All Gas No Brakes) where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGrKJofDaw

>where he tries to work with a group of homeless people in Las Vegas to get them papers and the process is extremely difficult. Like bordering on impossible. That seems like the worst case scenario though? I don't think homeless people should be disenfranchised, but at the same time it's unfair to pretend the typical experience of getting a voter id resembles whatever the TV show is depicting either.

"But these marginalized group of people isn't something we need to worry about right?"

But even setting aside homeless, US states have a very documented, very public history of disenfranchising African American voters.

* 1890-1960 you've got "literacy tests" that would routinely fail black voters but allow white voters through

* 1800-1960 you've got poll taxes which was used strategically in places to harm black & sometimes even poor white voters, mostly to suppress black voters. This by the way is where a lot of the sensitivity comes up around driver's licenses and ID cards - it's frequently referred to as a modern day poll tax.

* "Grandfather" clauses where if you grandfather could vote before the Civil War then you could bypass literacy tests & poll taxes.

Let's fast forward lest you think this is an "old" problem.

* In the 1960s you've got racial gerrymandering which starts to become popular as previous mechanisms are disallowed (this by the way still happens today & the GOP will frequently try to whitewash it as a political move and it just so happens that the Democratic party is predominantly black & the current SCOTUS has allowed that kind of fig leaf).

* Voter roll purges frequently seem to target black communities.

* Felon disenfranchisement laws seem "equal access" until you realize that African Americans are jailed in a 2:1 ratio to white people.

* North Carolina in 2013 cut early voting and same-day registration specifically targeting Black voters (as ruled on by the 4th circuit). Alabama in 2015 closed DMVs and polling places making it hard to get an ID AND to vote (closures centered in majority-Black counties). Wisconsin in 2016 had DMV clerks caught on tape intentionally giving incorrect information to deter voters from getting ID. Georgia in 2018 closed a huge amount of polling places centered in black majority districts. Texas as well (these counties had been protected by the VRA).

Sure, the most impacted tend to be poor people, but regardless of income, it's almost always got a racial bent by most of these power centers. Pretending like racism is a solved problem in America is being willfully blind.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#108

Post by esseph »

celeritascelery wrote: post #85
nerdponx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/noncitizen-voting-us... > There is no evidence that unauthorized immigrants, green-card holders, or immigrants on temporary visas are voting in significant numbers, despite some claims that “millions” of noncitizens are voting in U.S. elections. In fact, audits by election officials and numerous studies reflect that voter fraud by noncitizens is extremely rare. > A [Heritage Fo…

It’s great that those organizations say it’s uncommon. But this shouldn’t even be an issue. It doesn’t take many votes to tip a close election. Requiring ID like every other country is the common sense thing to do. And it helps build confidence in the election process without the need for organizations to try and demonstrate that the election was legitimate after the fact.

Triage, you work by priority to maximize impact.

Look at the problems in this country

23 instances. 23.

As an analogy, let's say I'm triaging a broken neck, a burn, a gunshot wound, a compound fracture, a stab wound, a broken toe, and a hangnail.

If Voter ID were to be placed somewhere on here, it would be below hangnail.

This is smoke and mirrors nonsense that is using minorities and trans people as a scapegoat and distraction.

How much fucking richer are people getting? Poor people have been convinced by rich people that their problems are the other poor people. It's insane. You can pull this pattern out of every modern fascist government and yet people are lacking on to it like a bunch of suckers. It's embarrassing. We should be fucking ashamed of ourselves.

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#109

Post by triceratops »

ImJamal wrote: post #75
tastyface wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

There are people pushing for non-citizens to vote in non-federal elections. One example is New York City where they literally passed a law to allow it. It was struck down because it violated New York's constitution though...

It's not exactly unprecedented and also orthogonal to voter id laws. Scotland, for example, allows foreigners to vote in local elections [1] and makes photo id mandatory [2].

1. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland

2. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland/how-t...

Re: Brennan Center for Justice Report: The Campaign to Undermine the Next Election

#110

Post by nerdponx »

Freedom2 wrote: post #102
celeritascelery wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ID is required, then your whole “Illegals must be tipping elections" argument just goes away. People keep making this debate in the US of “we need ID to prevent election fraud” vs “we can’t have ID required because ID can be hard to obtain”. It’s just silly. If you take a step back and make it easier to get an ID than the whole things resolves itself. The pro-ID people are happy Because only registered voters can…

> Every other country can do it, why not the US? American exceptionalism is a real thing, unfortunately. And what I've found is that when confronted with a flaw or aspect of their society that could be improved, Americans tend to work backwards from the problem and try to explain away the problem, while inventing ridiculous hypotheticals for why other countries implementations won't work. See: this thread and voter I…

Apart from the fact that you are basically disregarding all of the detail explanations on why the US is in fact different when it comes to voter ID, all of the things you mentioned are primarily decided by states, with relatively federal authority beyond the ability to withhold funding conditional on states adopting certain policies, which is a very crude instrument that is only used in a handful of circumstances like establishing a nationwide minimum drinking age. And what you will find is that there is a tremendous amount of heterogeneity across states in all of those categories.
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