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The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

theguardian.com

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Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#101

Post by WalterBright »

nradov wrote: post #93
WalterBright wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare costs have risen faster than inflation since the 1960s, when the government got involved with providing "free" healthcare. Before then, costs tracked inflation. Health care costs that are not provided "free" by the government have fallen, such as lasik eye surgery.

You seem to have the causality backwards. Prior to the 1960s, the healthcare system couldn't really do much. Most of the drugs, devices, and procedures were relatively cheap. After that the capabilities increased tremendously as did costs, and then government had to get involved to control costs and ensure patient access. (Although many of those government interventions ultimately had the opposite effect.)

Why did Lasik machines decrease in cost, while increasing in efficacy?

Drugs were far cheaper before the 1962 FDA Amendments, after that was a massive increase in costs. See "Regulation of Pharmaceutical Innovation" by Sam Peltzman.

https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-...

See also:

How American Health Care Killed My Father https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame...

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#102

Post by ost-ing »

zackmorris wrote: post #68

"Nurses should be at the very top of our social hierarchy but we live in a world where it’s just the opposite," she says. "This film is a love letter to the profession." I moved furniture for 3 years in the early 2000s to support my shareware business. Something like 500 moves, sometimes 9+ hours per day, occasionally 6 days per week. It made me who I am today, but also broke me in countless ways. I witnessed single…

Although I am younger than you, I feel somewhat similar. The never ending treadmill of technology seemingly makes things worse rather than better. I’m working in robotics, and I think is this actually the right thing to be doing? - but if I dont, then I wont eat and afford my future.

Really feels like society is burning the candle at both ends.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#103

Post by trhway »

nradov wrote: post #92
trhway wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sadly, hospitals are full of 80-90+ year old people who cannot ... and the family continues to insist we "do everything" to help this person. so what? It is on their dime, not yours. If i'm a 90 years old and wanna drag my existence out it is my choice as long as i'm paying for it, directly or through insurance (and Medicare is an insurance too btw) It is easy to suggest to terminate lives earlier when it isn't your…

Medicare is not insurance. The word "insurance" has a specific meaning, and the traditional Medicare fee-for-service program doesn't meet that definition. (There are a variety of other payers or health plans in the US healthcare system which fill a similar role to insurance but are not actually insurance.)

ok, call it a contract between an individual and society - the individual pays taxes today and when retired gets his/her medical needs taken care about by the society. Looks like an insurance contract to me, btw.

Anyway, like with any contract, whatever the individual is due under that contract is his dime, not the taxpayers'.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#104

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

xnyan wrote: post #99
FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, nursing does not require a 4 year degree. You can become an RN with an associates degree. A 2 year nursing degree has one of the highest returns on investment of any training program (especially if you go to community college). Ivy Tech CC in Indiana and WGU both have nursing programs with great returns. Keep in mind, nursing is not an easy path and has a super high burnout rate. It's a tough and…

A lot of people are surprised to learn the the average wage for both plumbers and electricians is ~30 bucks an hour, then that’s in exchange for body breaking work. A small subset earn more, but it’s not the norm.

Industrial electrician around here start at 30 - 35 for 2 years as a trainee then go to 40. That's top 10% income for low cost of living area. It's not unusual to hit 100k with no school debt at a young age.

Industrial automation technician I have worked with makes north of 300k but he is traveling all over the world to do it.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#105

Post by nradov »

WalterBright wrote: post #101
nradov wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have the causality backwards. Prior to the 1960s, the healthcare system couldn't really do much. Most of the drugs, devices, and procedures were relatively cheap. After that the capabilities increased tremendously as did costs, and then government had to get involved to control costs and ensure patient access. (Although many of those government interventions ultimately had the opposite effect.)

Why did Lasik machines decrease in cost, while increasing in efficacy? Drugs were far cheaper before the 1962 FDA Amendments, after that was a massive increase in costs. See "Regulation of Pharmaceutical Innovation" by Sam Peltzman. https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-... See also: How American Health Care Killed My Father https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame...

Drugs were cheaper back then because they were less safe and effective, and because the easy stuff had mostly already been found.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#106

Post by nradov »

trhway wrote: post #103
nradov wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare is not insurance. The word "insurance" has a specific meaning, and the traditional Medicare fee-for-service program doesn't meet that definition. (There are a variety of other payers or health plans in the US healthcare system which fill a similar role to insurance but are not actually insurance.)

ok, call it a contract between an individual and society - the individual pays taxes today and when retired gets his/her medical needs taken care about by the society. Looks like an insurance contract to me, btw. Anyway, like with any contract, whatever the individual is due under that contract is his dime, not the taxpayers'.

It doesn't matter what you're due under a contract if the counterparty is insolvent. Medicare beneficiaries are going to have to accept reduced benefits and higher fees. This is unavoidable due to demographic changes.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#107

Post by crmd »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #74
crmd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another potential alternative is healthy capitalism, where a large number healthcare providers are in competition with each other to provide the best service at the lowest cost. In this model a hospital, for example, would be forbidden to buy another hospital down the road, in the same way a doctor’s office would be forbidden to buy a second doctor’s office, because both cases reduce competition.

That would be government. Markets don't regulate themselves and monopoly is the natural equilibrium state of capitalism.

No, it would be a mixed economy, where private individuals and businesses provide most of the goods and services, and the government plays a significant role in regulating the market.

Monopolized markets are almost always evidence of regulatory failure.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#108

Post by WalterBright »

nradov wrote: post #105
WalterBright wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Lasik machines decrease in cost, while increasing in efficacy? Drugs were far cheaper before the 1962 FDA Amendments, after that was a massive increase in costs. See "Regulation of Pharmaceutical Innovation" by Sam Peltzman. https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-... See also: How American Health Care Killed My Father https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame...

Drugs were cheaper back then because they were less safe and effective, and because the easy stuff had mostly already been found.

Before 1962, drugs were already regulated to be safe. 1962 brought about the requirement for effective, which enormously increased drug prices. It's all in the book I referenced.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#109

Post by couchridr »

betaby wrote: post #21
retrac wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rising faster than inflation for several years Over here in Canada healthcare spending has been rising faster than general inflation more or less continuously since the 1960s. Seems to be generally true of many wealthy countries. More tech and therapies. And an ageing population. And probably other factors. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Health_care_cost_r...

Salaries probably pay factor as well? Check the sunshine list, plenty of radiologists making 600k/year. That's literally 10x of the median salary.

Sure but at least radiologists do something. What do hospital administrators do? Like a university a hospital has bureaucracy that grows.

Re: The hit film about overworked nurses that's causing alarm across Europe

#110

Post by kelseyfrog »

crmd wrote: post #107
kelseyfrog wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be government. Markets don't regulate themselves and monopoly is the natural equilibrium state of capitalism.

No, it would be a mixed economy, where private individuals and businesses provide most of the goods and services, and the government plays a significant role in regulating the market. Monopolized markets are almost always evidence of regulatory failure.

"Healthy capitalism" isn’t an option distinct from government intervention. Healthy capitalism it is government-regulated capitalism. Any system where competition is protected depends on active, ongoing government enforcement of the rules. Without that, markets naturally tend toward monopoly or oligopoly.

Advocating for "healthy capitalism," is advocating for a system where government sets boundaries and steps in to preserve competition. That places it firmly within the spectrum of government-regulated options, not outside or apart from them.

It's tempting to imagine ideal or the worst versions of each option and then claim, "what I want is none of these." Instead, we should look at whether our preferred scenario is actually possible within the real-world range of choices. In this case, "healthy capitalism" is only possible when government is both the referee and the enforcer, so it's a version of the government option, not a separate path.

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