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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

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Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#101

Post by evantbyrne »

0x457 wrote: post #91
evantbyrne wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gun crimes tend to be ambushes rather than something that even remotely resembles a duel.

So every second counts?

Can't pull when someone randomly has the drop on you chambered or not. Have to retreat/conceal first anyways. Far more likely to have a tragic accident than ever saving someone. Not long ago someone accidentally shot the neighbor's house right into the bathroom. Accidents happen way more frequently than random crime and should be the top concern for gun owners.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#102

Post by ipv6ipv4 »

darkteflon wrote: post #53

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose…

> Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off.

This information should be kept in mind whenever anyone, especially a gun advocate, expresses dismay at the frequency of police shootings in America. America is so awash in guns, and people willing to use them, that for the average cop it is better to shoot first and ask questions later than to risk returning home in a body bag. We’ve just been informed that in threatening situations there is no time to chamber a round, but cops are simultaneously supposed to take the time to evaluate the threat to their safety.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#103

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bl4ckneon wrote: post #93
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)

I know some people who went into the air force out of high school. They are idiots. Given a large enough group of people you will have examples of just about anything (including idiots) Another example, it's estimated that 1-2% of all military members are part of or connected to an illegal gang organization.

> I know some people who went into the air force out of high school. They are idiots

Every population has some idiots in it. My point is the Air Force is difficult to get into, has a high fraction of educated servicemembers [1], has lower turnover and higher pay than the other branches. (Back when we measured IQ, the Air Force had a higher average IQ than the other branches and population.)

I know idiots who work at Google. That doesn't it's safe to assume the average person at Google is an idiot.

[1] https://www.collegevine.com/faq/90807/most-educated-branch-o...

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#104

Post by impossiblefork »

chasd00 wrote: post #78
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

I don’t conceal carry but it’s commonly known that you don’t draw your weapon unless you’re shooting to kill. In those situations, if there was time to chamber a round then there was time to escape. If you draw your weapon as a warning or, worse, fire warning shots you’ll be arrested for brandishing at least.

This dichotomy is obviously false though.

If an attacker doesn't have a firearm you probably have time to chamber a round, if the attacker misses a shot at you you have time to chamber a round, if you have time to take cover you may have time to chamber a round and then be in an approximately 50-50 situation, etc.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#105

Post by [deleted] »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #97

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge…

[deleted]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#106

Post by GiorgioG »

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #97

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge…

Odds are, you'll never experience the self-discharging issue. Having said that, I don't find a mostly-reliable firearm acceptable from a safety perspective. If I don't pull the trigger, it cannot go bang, ever, for any reason.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#107

Post by supportengineer »

giantg2 wrote: post #72
Filmatic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military personnel generally can’t carry at all on post/base without a specific need. Nor keep private firearms at home, if on base/post housing. This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely.

"This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely." Yes, most people will feel quite safe in a secured facility with controlled access, simialar to court houses. Imagine living in a place where everyone has been vetted and the perimeter is secured with armed guards.

This is a genius idea. Sell on-base housing to safety-minded civilians. The HOA fees will generate a tidy profit.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#108

Post by nosignono »

homefree wrote: post #41
nosignono wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.

If it was in the holster, most people don't teach that the muzzle direction rule applies (since in the holster it's supposed to be inert). A lot of carry methods have the muzzle pointing at things you would not want it pointing at when unholstered.

In general the safety rules I was taught were defense in depth -- multiple failures need to happen before someone can get hurt. So, even when you have a holstered firearm, pointing the muzzle away from people is preferable because then if it somehow does fail at least it's less likely to shoot someone.

Obviously that's not always practical, but if you are placing a chambered firearm down on a desk, you might as well try to point it in the direction of least harm, it basically costs zero to do.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#109

Post by avalys »

fmbb wrote: post #80
nosignono wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you draw from concealment, an experienced shooter needs only get their grip and an eye picture -- point gun at target and fire. You only need to train muscle memory to get into a firing position, which is also what you are regularly training every time you live fire or dry fire. If you don't have a round chambered, you need to draw, rack and release the slide, hope a round is properly chambered (in a panicked si…

I’m a panicked position maybe you should not fire a gun. If you cannot even chamber a round who’s to say you can hit what you want to hit?

In what situation do you imagine a civilian legally using a gun for self-defense is not “panicked”?

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#110

Post by giantg2 »

gmueckl wrote: post #81
giantg2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely." Yes, most people will feel quite safe in a secured facility with controlled access, simialar to court houses. Imagine living in a place where everyone has been vetted and the perimeter is secured with armed guards.

There are tons of incidents with intruders on military bases where I am from. They are atrractive targets for criminals like thieves, too. Guards aren't a very effective deterrent. Also, everyone I talked to who found suspicious activity while on guard duty confessed to me that they were terrified in the moment even though they were trying to project authority on the outside.

Depends on the base. Most bases have controlled entrances and patrolled perimeters. I do know of some that are more or less open or only require a photo ID for entry, but those don't seem as common. Or maybe times are changing.
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