I believe this is a "good" bubble in the sense that the 19th century railroad bubble and original dot com bubble both ended up invested in infrastructure that created immense value. That said, all of these LLMs are interchangeable, there are no moats, and the profit will almost entirely be in the "last mile," in local subject matter experts applying this technology to their bespoke business processes.
I keep saying to people - "if you have a good idea that can make use of large amounts of really really cheap GPUs to do something genuinely useful - get ready for a massive glut of spare capacity". I still haven't thought of anything, unfortunately...
The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
101–110 of 168 posts
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
We are pretty much plateauing in base model performance since gpt4. It's mostly tooling and integration now. The target is also AGI so no matter your product you will get measured on your progress towards it. With new "sota" models popping up left and right you also have no good way of user retention because the user is mostly interested in the models performance not the funny meme generator you added. looking at you…
So, how do you feel about the recent IMO stuff? Don't they cause a consistency problem for your view that we've plateaued-- to me at least, I felt we were something like two years away from this kind of thing. Probably very expensive to run of course, probably ridiculously so, but they were able to solve really difficult maths problems.
It's not real, they are cheating on benchmarks. (Just like the previous many times this was announced.)
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#103damn he doesn't say when the shorts should start
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#104Lots of in-depth analysis, but I think the author is very clearly emotionally invested to the point that they are only drawing conclusions that justify and support their emotions. I agree that we’re in a bubble in the sense that a lot of these companies will go bankrupt, but it won’t be Google or Anthropic (unless Google makes a model that’s an order of magnitude better or order of magnitude cheaper with capability p…
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#105Are we in a bubble that's going to pop and take a large part of the economy with it? Almost certainly. Does it mean that the AI is a scam? Not really. After all, the Internet did not disappear after the dotcom burst, and, actually, almost everything we were promised by the dotcoms became reality at some point.
> almost everything we were promised by the dotcoms became reality at some point. remember the blockchain bubble? used much blockchain lately? are blockchains changing anything?
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> people are comfortable enough to publicly and shamelessly extrapolate extraordinary claims based purely on gut feeling What's the problem with that? Why shouldn't people feel comfortable sharing their vision of the future, even if it's just a "gut feeling" vision? We're not going to run out of ink.
I guess I expect higher standards than the kind of confident extrapolation you find in pseudo-science. And "vision of the future" is your euphemistic rewrite. If that's clearly stated I obviously have no problem with people's fanciful speculation. But these are claims in the format: "X will be replaced in a couple of years, how should we adapt as a society?" etc etc.
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not necessarily. The ppl and firms making the capital expenditures can go bankrupt for instance. The world will carry on without them, while the infrastructure they built with those expenditures continues to provide value, just to someone else, and now at a dramatically lower capital cost. We could compare it to the railroad boom, and the telecom boom - in both cases vast sums capital expenditures were made, and reas…
“The world will carry on without them”. Sure but at the end of the day it’s not because companies can go bankrupt that debts etc magically disappear. It still impact other companies.
The impact of firms and people going bankrupt that other people making investment and lending decisions will see risk more clearly and may (for a time) be less greedy and stupid when they make capital allocation decisions.
Debts can & do magically disappear. To be clear someone paid for the lost money, but at that stage it's far too late for them to be able to do anything about it, let alone raise prices.
Here's an example: Founder A founds a startup with equity funding from B & C. Later they take loans from D & E. They spend all the money but never become profitable. None of the original investors or lenders is interested in pumping in good money after bad. They voluntarily declare bankruptcy or they default on a loan and D or E forces them into bankruptcy. Either way, whatever is left of the company's assets are sold to reimburse, in part, the loan D & E made. A, B & C got nothing.
A, B, C, D, and E, all lost real money.
But by the time this loss is crystalized, there is no way any of them can go back in time to raise prices to pay for it. It's gone and so is the company. The only thing they can do is act differently in the future.
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not necessarily. The ppl and firms making the capital expenditures can go bankrupt for instance. The world will carry on without them, while the infrastructure they built with those expenditures continues to provide value, just to someone else, and now at a dramatically lower capital cost. We could compare it to the railroad boom, and the telecom boom - in both cases vast sums capital expenditures were made, and reas…
I am so, so glad you brought up what should be the obvious conclusion here. "B-but they spent all that money, how do they get it back!?" "That's the fun part, they don't." Creative destruction is a woefully underappreciated force in capitalism. Shareholders can lose everything. Debt can be restructured or sold for pennies on the dollar. Debt can go unsold and unpaid, and the creditors can lose everything. I think her…
"B-but the developer always has to make the money back so rents & prices can never go down!" "That's the fun part, they don't!"
The builder/buyer/lender/landlord/etc can go bankrupt but as long as the building actually got built, it will carry on and benefit the rest of us, regardless of what happened to the ppl who paid for it to be built.
Also fun when landlords claim to be "housing providers" "No actually, the housing will still be there, even if you sell, even if you lose your shirt and get foreclosed on"
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#109damn he doesn't say when the shorts should start
Re: The Hater's Guide to the AI Bubble
#110Let's unpack that a bit.
Capex is spending on capital goods, with the spending being depreciated over the expected lifetime of the good. You can't compare a year of capex to a year of revenue: a truck doesn't need to pay for itself in year 1, it needs to pay for itself over 10 or 20 years. The projected lifetime of datacenter hardware bought today is probably something like 5-7 years (changes to the depreciation schedule are often flagged in earnings releases, so that's a good source for hard data). The projected lifetime of a new datacenter building is substantially longer than that.
Somehow Zitron manages to not make a comparison that's even more invalid than comparing one year of Capex to one year of revenue: he basically ends up comparing a year of revenue to two years of Capex. So now the truck needs to pay for itself in six months.
They way you'd need to think about this is to for example consider what the return on the capital goods bought in 2024 was in 2025. But that's not what's happening here. Instead the article is basically expecting a GPU that's to be paid for and installed in late 2025 to produce revenue in early 2025. That's not going to happen. In a stable state, this would not matter so much. But this is not a stable state. Both capex and revenue are growing rapidly, and revenue will lag behind.
What about the capex being inflated and the revenue being low-balled?
None of us really know for sure how much of the capex spending is on things one might call AI. But the pre-AI capex baseline of these companies was tens of billions each. Probably some non-AI projects no longer happen so that the companies can plow more money into AI capex, but it absolutely won't be all of it like the article assumes. As another example, why in the world is Tesla being included in the capex numbers? It's just blatant and desperate padding of the numbers.
As for the revenue, this is mostly analyst estimates rather than hard data (with the exception of Microsoft, though Zitron is misrepresenting the meaning of run rate). Given what he has to say about analysts elsewhere, seems odd to trust them here. But more importantly, they are analyst estimates of a subset of the revenue that GPUs/TPUs would produce. What happens when Amazon buys a GPU? Some of those GPUs will be used internally. Some of them will be used to provide genai API services. Some might be used to provide end-user AI proucts. And some of them will be rented out as GPUs. Only the two middle ones would be considered AI revenue.
I don't know what the fair and comparable numbers would be, am not aware of a trustworthy public source, and won't even try to guess at them. But when we don't know what the real numbers are, the one thing we should not do is use obviously invalid ones and present them as facts.
> I am only writing with this aggressive tone because, for the best part of two years,
Zitron's entire griftluencer schtick has always been writing aggressive and often obscenity-laden diatribes. Anyway, please don't forget to subscribe for just $7/month, and remember that he just loves to write and has no motive for clickbait or stirring up some outrage.