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Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

bozmen.io

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Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#101
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homomorphically encrypted services don't need a priori knowledge of the encryption key. That's literally the whole point. Consider the following (very weak) encryption scheme: m, k ∈ Z[p], E(m) = m * k mod p, D(c) = c * k⁻¹ mod p With this, I can implement a service that receives two cyphertexts and computes their encrypted sum, without knowledge of the key k: E(x) + E(y) = x * k + y * k mod p = (x + y) * k mod p = E…

In the case of searching Google, E(x) is the encrypted query and y is Google's database. Can you compute E(x + y) without doing at least as much work as computing E(y)? I don't think so. Instead, you use public key cryptography so that the server can compute E(y) (yes, encrypting the entire database) without being able to decrypt D(E(x)) = x.

Wrong. In the case of searching, the database is the function that you feed the input query into.

E.g. consider the following system:

E(x) = x ^ k, D(x) = x ^ k

So a one-time pad. Let's say that I provide a service that lets you decide whether a number is even or odd:

IsOdd(E(x)) = E(x) mod 2

You give it an encrypted number, and it gives you back an encrypted bit that you can decrypt to see if the original number was even or not. All while it has zero knowledge of your plaintext number.

A homomorphically encrypted database is just like IsOdd(x), except orders of magnitude more complex. One idea is that any computation can be turned into a Boolean circuit, so if you have homomorphic building blocks for Boolean circuits, you can implement any computation. Obviously, some caveats apply, like all loops have to be unrolled, etc. That's why the whole thing is so inefficient. But mathematically it works.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#102

How do you send a password reset email with this. Eventually your mail server will need the plaintext address in order to send the email. And that point can be leaked in a data breach. It's idealistic to think this could solve data braches because businesses knowing who their customers are is such a fundamental concept.

A password reset e-mail is supposed to expire pretty quickly though, so would it really matter in practice?

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#103
post #74
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we are talking 1000x more latency, that is a pretty hard sell. Something that normally takes 30 seconds now takes over 8 hours.

Its like, python can be 400 times slower than C++, but people still use it.

For compute, which is a small part of things computers do. Many things are I/O and network bound.

I’m not at all a fan of Python, but perf is the least of my concerns with it.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#104
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not joking. If you're like most people and have only a few TiB of data in total, self hosting on a NAS or spare PC is very viable. There are even products for non-technical people to set this up (e.g. software bundled with a NAS). The main barrier is having an ISP with a sufficient level of service.

But if you have a lot of data, self hosting is still cheaper. Its always gonna be cheaper because you don't have the cloud provider's profit margin, which can be quite high.

It can be quite high, but it doesn't have to be. For instance, I have a 7TB storage server from Hosthatch that's $190 for 2 years. That's $7.92 per month, or £5.88 at today's exchange rates. That's under 20p per day.

Just on electricity costs alone, this is good value. My electricity costs are 22.86p/kWh which is pretty cheap for the UK. That means that if having that drive plugged in and available 24/7 uses more than 37W, it's more expensive to self host at home than rent the space via a server. Also, I've not needed to buy the drive or a NAS, nor do I have to worry about replacing hardware if it fails.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#105
post #53
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think there is a market for people who want services that have provable privacy even if it costs 1,000 times more? It's not as big a segment as Dropbox but I imagine it's there.

If we are talking 1000x more latency, that is a pretty hard sell. Something that normally takes 30 seconds now takes over 8 hours.

Or more like, something that normally takes 50ms like a http request, would take a minute.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#106
post #86
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not explicitly state this fact, but they link to the homomorphic encryption scheme they're using, which works like this. To perform an operation between a plaintext value and an encrypted value, you first encrypt the plaintext with the public key and then you can do your operation on the encrypted values to get the encrypted output. Moreover, even if the details were slightly different, a scheme that reveals…

Is that what they mean in the Wally paper post by > In previous private search systems, for each client query, the server must perform at least one expensive cryptographic operation per database entry. ?

Exactly. (I had only looked at the homomorphic encryption post, not the Wally post.) Wally tries to work around this limitation by only using homomorphic encryption for a subset of the database, and reducing the resulting information leakage by using an anonymous network to hide which client is querying which subset. They say this network is operated by a third party, but ultimately you still have to trust that the network operator isn't colluding with the server operator to deanonymize your queries. That's a weaker privacy guarantee, but at least it's not painfully slow.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#107
all great until you realize no one is allowed to export things to other regions if it works too well (crypto). Then besides that, the companies who now litterally live off of your personal data (most of big tech), wont suddenly drop their main source of income on behalf of the privacy of their users which clearly, they care nothing about.

unless replacement services are offered and adopted en masse (they wont be, u cant market against companies who can throw billions at breaking you), those giants wont give away their main source of revenue...

so even if technical challenges are overcome, there are more human and political challenges which will likely be even harder to crack...

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good encryption schemes are designed so that ciphertexts are effectively indistinguishable from random data -- you should not be able to see any pattern in the encrypted text without knowledge of the key and the algorithm. If your encryption scheme satisfies this, there are no patterns for the LLM to learn: if you only know the ciphertext but not the key, every continuation of the plaintext should be equally likely,…

I am confused: you can implement LLM learning with FHE. It’s a different problem than learning on encrypted data.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise! That's why I also linked the CryptoNets paper - to show that you're transforming the inference to happen inside an FHE context, not trying to learn encrypted data

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#109
post #91
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NX and ASLR make it harder for other people to exploit your code on your computer. SGX tries to make it easier for other people to run code on your computer without you seeing the code or what it's doing. They're not in the same category.

SGX on consumer client devices is sucky for that reason, but SGX on the server can be used to defend user interests. If I put my sensitive customer data inside SGX (such that I can operate on it but not extract it), and the nation-state adversary says "we have a warrant for your customer data, hand it over", I can reasonably say "I can't". I could also produce attestations that my code really is running inside SGX, v…

SGX on the server is breakable if and only if SGX on the client is breakable. You can either own other people's computers, or you can prevent other people owning your computer. You can't eat your cake and have it.

Yes, it might be good for ass-covering as you indicate. A lot of ineffective technical solutions are effective legal liability shields anyway. But if this becomes mainstream, the NSA will develop something they can covertly (or not) install on any such server to break SGX, so make sure you have a backup plan anyway.

Also note that Intel removed SGX from their processors because it was breakable and underused.

Re: Fully homomorphic encryption and the dawn of a private internet

#110

> Internet's "Spy by default" can become "Privacy by default". I've been building and promoting digital signatures for years. Its bad for people and market-dynamics to have Hacker News or Facebook be the grand arbiter of everyone's identity in a community. Yet here we are because its just that much simpler to build and use it this way, which gets them more users and money which snowballs until alternatives dont matte…

> I've been building and promoting digital signatures for years.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and yet I do get the following question a lot "What's all that nonsense at the end of your emails". Any explanation is met with eye-rolls and 1000 yard stares. Have you managed to get laypeople on-board with any kind of client-side cryptography? how?

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