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American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

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Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#101
post #28

> Many of the most valuable scientific organizations in the world, including NOAA, NASA, the NSF, the CDC, the EPA, and the FDA, I don’t dismiss the premise of the article and I think it is a shame how these organizations are being impacted, but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

> but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science Then you simply aren't familiar with their work. These (plus NIH, DOE, DOD etc.) are the engines of a large portion of the world's science. The engine is starved and it is going to destroy American industry.

> are the engines of a large portion of the world's science.

the article is meant to educate and inform, so inform the reader, who might know that fact, of it and some evidence to characterize the dynamic.

when you preach to the choir, you miss a chance to widen the circle of empathy.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#102

This has definitely been my feeling too as a fresh postdoc. For a while it has been feeling more and more like the US isn't worth the effort and stress. Sure, I make more money here, but is it worth dealing with nonsensical immigration policies, haphazard funding cuts, crumbling infrastructure, completely random rulemaking, and demoralized colleagues facing severe and nonsensical budget cuts when various other countr…

I see Trump as being a socially acceptable widening of this sort of behavior.

AI is just an enabling of the the imagination of the now widened bracket of behavior.

As has been often remarked on. this is a really shit timeline to exist in.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's engineering . Science involves laws and facts about the natural world that are not yet known.

There's a lot of overlap between science and engineering, a lot of the things being affected by the cuts would be engineering by your definition. E.g. designing scientific instruments. The fundamental physics and chemistry can be well understood, and yet you need a strong overlap of scientists and engineers to produce and run something that actually collects useful data, especially at the cutting edge, where new thin…

Scientific research groups hire engineers to engineer, and industry teams hire scientists to serve as specialized engineers, but there is next to no scientific research in the industrial sector.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#104
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you ever worked with DOE office of science or anyone at the national renewable energy labs? not the brightest lightbulbs out there.

> not the brightest lightbulbs out there That’s true—all the brightest bulbs are working at FAANG companies building advertising delivery services, or at Fintech companies figuring out how to gamble faster.

Unironically true.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#105
post #74
post #11

I don't clearly see how a massive exodus of American scientists moving abroad could happen. While I understand that young scientists might find it easier to relocate, the decision becomes significantly far more complicated for couples, even when both partners are scientists. For other countries or regions to become truly competitive, they would also need to increase their investment in science significantly [1]. [1]…

I agree with this analysis; it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. However, there’s another thing to consider: the amount of researchers from grad students all the way to tenured professors and senior industry researchers who are not American citizens who moved to America for their careers. The following is anecdotal and I don’t have any statistics. When I was a PhD student at…

> The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture

So, all those people you met did exactly this.

> it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate.

No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to the USA.

I know that Americans like to believe that everyone in the rest of the world really wants to live in the USA, but that's actually not true. There's a certain fascination, for sure, but (and especially recently) the USA is not the shining beacon on the hill that it once was.

> I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system

I suspect that both these barriers are easily overcome with the simple realisation that the choice is "be a scientist in China, or not at all".

If the USA cuts funding for all science, then all scientists must move abroad. There's no option to stay in the USA and be a scientist, because science in the USA is government funded and the government stopped funding it. If the individual chooses to stay in the USA, then they must also choose to stop being a scientist.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#106
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this analysis; it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. However, there’s another thing to consider: the amount of researchers from grad students all the way to tenured professors and senior industry researchers who are not American citizens who moved to America for their careers. The following is anecdotal and I don’t have any statistics. When I was a PhD student at…

> The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture So, all those people you met did exactly this. > it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to th…

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally.

Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture So, all those people you met did exactly this. > it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to th…

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally. Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

I agree. Even for Americans with experiences learning foreign languages and adapting to different cultures, it is not easy living abroad.

This is anecdotal, but I am currently in Japan as a visiting researcher at a Japanese university during my summer break; I'm a tenure-track computer science instructor at a Silicon Valley community college. This is my 13th time in Japan and my second-longest stay. I love being in Japan and it's a mission of mine to have ties to Japan for the rest of my life.

I'm in my mid-thirties, single with no children, and I'm knowledgeable of Japanese culture (including the work culture; I've interned in Japan for eight months and I've worked for a Silicon Valley branch of a Japanese company for six years) and I have the ability to have basic conversations in Japanese (I'm still studying with an aim for fluency), and so if push came to shove and I found myself with a bleak future in America, I could move to Japan long-term and adapt. In fact, it's a dream of mine to own a home in Japan.

However, it will still be a sacrifice. I would need to find a job either as a researcher or as a software engineer; a pure teaching career at the university level in Japan would be difficult for me until I become fluent in Japanese. Lower salaries plus the weak yen means it will be tough for me to pay off my dollar-denominated debts, including my student loans. In addition, I would like to get married and start a family one day, and while I'm treated well in Japan, I'm concerned about the treatment my children would face here (I'm a black American); it's one thing being a researcher at a Japanese institution, it's another thing being a child, especially a child with African ancestry.

Then again, the situation in America is deteriorating, with academia and science being under attack by our administration with breathtaking speed, and with anti-minority racism and xenophobia becoming normalized again in everyday society. Even if the Democrats win the 2026 midterms and the 2028 presidential election, we still have a very large voter base who is completely on-board with MAGA. Barring a situation that leads to the complete repudiation of MAGA by the American public as a whole, MAGA is going to remain a force in politics for decades to come, which will be my entire working career, and there will probably be future MAGA presidents in the 2030s and 2040s. The idea of a liberal democratic republic with liberal institutions that respect diversity and have an international view is under attack in America, and if MAGA succeeds, life will be more difficult for academics and minorities in America. I just don't know if there are any countries out there that resemble this old vision of America; perhaps Canada and Australia are the closest things.

Job-wise, I'm at a community college where we are not as reliant on federal funding compared to research universities, but I'm monitoring the situation carefully, and I need to be prepared for a situation where circumstances force me into alternative employment, including moving abroad.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture So, all those people you met did exactly this. > it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. No harder than it was for any of those other people to relocate to th…

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally. Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

Well, statistically speaking, Americans are more likely to be children or grandchildren of immigrants than, say, Europeans.

The language thing is real, and shared with other anglophone countries. Though there is an upside; almost everyone else speaks English, so it's likely that when you get to your new home you'll be able to be understood while you learn their language.

I spent a few years in Berlin, and worked there for two different German companies while struggling to learn the language. Everyone smoothly switched to English, sometimes mid-sentence, when I entered the chat. A German moving to the USA (or any anglophone country) would not have this experience and would have to get fluent in English really quickly.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I broadly agree, though I wonder if part of the reason why Americans think that going to other countries might be a very difficult decision is that if they aren't immigrants or children of immigrants, they have a very limited experience of learning a second or third language and adapting culturally. Learning Spanish in high-school isn't quite the same as learning to function in a new culture and language.

I agree. Even for Americans with experiences learning foreign languages and adapting to different cultures, it is not easy living abroad. This is anecdotal, but I am currently in Japan as a visiting researcher at a Japanese university during my summer break; I'm a tenure-track computer science instructor at a Silicon Valley community college. This is my 13th time in Japan and my second-longest stay. I love being in J…

Japan is definitely one of those countries where integrating is hard, I've heard. Germany was a lot easier.
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