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Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

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Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#101

I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is. Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information t…

What's non linear about spatial reasoning?

>We know that universal solutions can’t exist

Why not?

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#102
post #15

I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is. Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information t…

I agree that the problem is hard. However, biological brain is able to handle it quite "easily" ( is not really easy - bilions of iterations were needed ). The current brains are solving this 3D physical world _only_ via perception. So this is place were we must look. It starts with the sensing and the integration of that sensing. I am working at this problem since more than 10 years and I came to some results. I am…

Maybe a brute force solution would work just like it did for text. I would not be surprised if the scale of that brute force was not within reach yet though.

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#103
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know that universal solutions can’t exist and that all practical solutions require exotic high-dimensionality computational constructs that human brains will struggle to reason about. This has been the status quo since the 1980s. This particular set of problems is hard for a reason. This made me a bit curious. Would you have any pointers to books/articles/search terms if one wanted to have a bit deeper look on t…

I'm not aware of any convenient literature but it is relatively obvious once someone explains it to you (as it was explained to me). At its root it is a cutting problem, like graph cutting but much more general because it includes things like non-trivial geometric types and relationships. Solving the cutting problem is necessary to efficiently shard/parallelize operations over the data models. For classic scalar data…

Ive spent years trying to tackle spatial representations on my own, so Im extremely curious here.

How does the cutting problem relate to intelligence in the first place?

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#104

An immaterial side note: funny how obsessed she seems to be with her age. She said once that people in the audience could be half or even third of her age. Given that she's 49, is it really typical that 16-year olds attend these fireside YC chats?

> An immaterial side note: funny how obsessed she seems to be with her age. Given her intellectual stature, Professor Li likely was one of the strongest minds in any room she found herself in and, for the first half of her life, also one of the youngest voices. Now that she’s entering mid-life, she’s still one of the most powerful minds, but no longer one of the youngest. It’s something middle-aged thinkers can’t hel…

It's interesting how figures get idolized.

Fei-Fei Li is known for the creation of ImageNet, which is certainly transformative in the field of computer vision. But the crux of it is painstaking grunt work to create the vast labeled dataset. Fei-Fei Li is a leader who mobilized vast resources and people hours to create this vast dataset. Certainly worth a ton of acclaim. But to claim she's the most brilliant mind in an entire room is a stretch.

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#105
post #15

I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is. Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information t…

I agree that the problem is hard. However, biological brain is able to handle it quite "easily" ( is not really easy - bilions of iterations were needed ). The current brains are solving this 3D physical world _only_ via perception. So this is place were we must look. It starts with the sensing and the integration of that sensing. I am working at this problem since more than 10 years and I came to some results. I am…

Also a cook here whose spent years thinking about this, would love to hear about what results you've obtained

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#106

I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is. Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information t…

What's non linear about spatial reasoning? >We know that universal solutions can’t exist Why not?

Spatial models must be 3D, not 1D (linear), much less 2D, which is sufficient for images and object recognition (where models are not needed). And adding time makes it 4D, at least for robot motion.

To reason spatially (and dynamically) the dependence of one object's position in space on other objects (and their motions and behaviors) adds up fast to complicate the model in ways that 95% of 2D static image analysis does not.

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#107

I appreciate the video and generally agree with Fei-Fei but I think it almost understates how different the problem of reasoning about the physical world actually is. Most dynamics of the physical world are sparse, non-linear systems at every level of resolution. Most ways of constructing accurate models mathematically don’t actually work. LLMs, for better or worse, are pretty classic (in an algorithmic information t…

You're pointing out a real class of hard problems — modeling sparse, nonlinear, spatiotemporal systems — but there’s a fundamental mischaracterization in lumping all transformer-based models under “LLMs” and using that to dismiss the possibility of spatial reasoning.

Yes, classic LLMs (like GPT) operate as sequence predictors with no inductive bias for space, causality, or continuity. They're optimized for language fluency, not physical grounding. But multimodal models like ViT, Flamingo, and Perceiver IO are a completely different lineage, even if they use transformers under the hood. They tokenize images (or video, or point clouds) into spatially-aware embeddings and preserve positional structure in ways that make them far more suited to spatial reasoning than pure text LLMs.

The supposed “impedance mismatch” is real for language-only models, but that’s not the frontier anymore. The field has already moved into architectures that integrate vision, text, and action. Look at Flamingo's vision-language fusion, or GPT-4o’s real-time audio-visual grounding — these are not mere LLMs with pictures bolted on. These are spatiotemporal attention systems with architectural mechanisms for cross-modal alignment.

You're also asserting that "no general-purpose representations of space exist" — but this neglects decades of work in computational geometry, graphics, physics engines, and more recently, neural fields and geometric deep learning. Sure, no universal solution exists (nor should we expect one), but practical approximations exist: voxel grids, implicit neural representations, object-centric scene graphs, graph neural networks, etc. These aren't perfect, but dismissing them as non-existent isn’t accurate.

Finally, your concern about who on the team understands these deep theoretical issues is valid. But the fact is: theoretical CS isn’t the bottleneck here — it’s scalable implementation, multimodal pretraining, and architectural experimentation. If anything, what we need isn’t more Solomonoff-style induction or clever data structures — it’s models grounded in perception and action.

The real mistake isn’t that people are trying to cram physical reasoning into LLMs. The mistake is in acting like all transformer models are LLMs, and ignoring the very active (and promising) space of multimodal models that already tackle spatial, embodied, and dynamical reasoning problems — albeit imperfectly.

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any convenient literature but it is relatively obvious once someone explains it to you (as it was explained to me). At its root it is a cutting problem, like graph cutting but much more general because it includes things like non-trivial geometric types and relationships. Solving the cutting problem is necessary to efficiently shard/parallelize operations over the data models. For classic scalar data…

Ive spent years trying to tackle spatial representations on my own, so Im extremely curious here. How does the cutting problem relate to intelligence in the first place?

Indexing is a special case of AI. At the limit, optimal cutting and learning are equivalent problems. Non-trivial spatial representations push these two things much closer together than is normally desirable for e.g. indexing algorithms. Tractability becomes a real issue.

Practically, scalable indexing of complex spatial relationships requires what is essentially a type of learned indexing, albeit not neural network based.

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#109
post #79

Thanks for joining the obvious Fei-Fei about 5 years late. Spatial web standards approved by IEEE that have been in the works for years. https://spatialwebfoundation.org/

You do know who she is right?

Of course.... doesn't mean she was early in forming that viewpoint. Just stating the near future obvious

Re: Fei-Fei Li: Spatial intelligence is the next frontier in AI [video]

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's non linear about spatial reasoning? >We know that universal solutions can’t exist Why not?

Spatial models must be 3D, not 1D (linear), much less 2D, which is sufficient for images and object recognition (where models are not needed). And adding time makes it 4D, at least for robot motion. To reason spatially (and dynamically) the dependence of one object's position in space on other objects (and their motions and behaviors) adds up fast to complicate the model in ways that 95% of 2D static image analysis d…

Well hold on, first Im not convinced we have solved 2D spatial intelligence. Analyzing 2D images is very different from being able to reason about 2D geometry. How do you mathematically define relations like "above", "below", "diagonal", etc in a composable way that can be learned?

Second, problems in 3D can be deconstructed to 2D. For example, how do you get to the airport? You need to first solve the 2D overview of the path youd take as youd now looking at a map. Then you need to reason about your field of view, and here again I believe youre really reasoning is something like "object A is behind object B and A is to the left of B", and not solving some non linear equation

I think a big issue is people are trying to solve this in the realm of traditional mathematics, and not as a simple step by step process

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