ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h • Hacker News Board

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#101

Post by 3D30497420 » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:06 AM UTC

chmod775 wrote: post #80

dlcarrier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the passenger miles per unit of energy drops geometrically, as speed increase linearly. Most of the loss is aerodynamic, so you either need a hyperloop tunnel or wings to take you into the literal stratosphere, to avoid high fuel burn at high speeds, so even if you could run the train at 400 km/hr along the whole track, it would be unlikely that any operator would do so, on a recurring basis.

I don't think cost is too much of a concern for ICEs. They are already a higher-priced option that competes with plane travel for many destinations. You can take RE trains at virtually no cost between any two cities you can dream of, yet people en-masse still happily fork over a hundred bucks to save 3-4 hours with an ICE train.

It may not be just 3-4 hours difference, it could be a very significant difference in convenience. For Berlin to Munich, I'm pretty sure there's no single RE alternative, so you're probably transferring 3 or 4 times as well.

I'm sure in some cases, an RE is a bit more competitive with an ICE, but in plenty of others you're asking for a pretty unpleasant time. (And this is from someone with a Deutschland card, making RE trains "free".)

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#102

Post by ffsm8 » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:21 AM UTC

perihelions wrote: post #84

dlcarrier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the passenger miles per unit of energy drops geometrically, as speed increase linearly. Most of the loss is aerodynamic, so you either need a hyperloop tunnel or wings to take you into the literal stratosphere, to avoid high fuel burn at high speeds, so even if you could run the train at 400 km/hr along the whole track, it would be unlikely that any operator would do so, on a recurring basis.

> "geometrically " It's only quadratic. Aerodynamic drag force ∝ v^2, so aerodynamic power dissipation ∝ v^3—but travel time ∝ v^{-1}, so that cancels out back to ∝ v^2 energy per km. (I don't know if this was your intent or the opposite, but "geometric" is a synonym for "exponential", which this isn't).

TIL

> So in your example (1^2,2^2,3^2,…), the growth is quadratic (a type of polynomial growth), not exponential. The term "exponentially" is often misused in everyday language to mean "very fast," but mathematically, it specifically requires the exponent to be changing.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#103

Post by adev_ » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:38 AM UTC

timeon wrote: post #90

adev_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is the same as in Switzerland, the solution is in helping people get the health care they need. [...] Switzerland SBB/CFF and the German DB can not be compared, not even from far. The Swiss trains are amongst the best in the world in term on punctuality. Delays barely exceed few minutes most of the time. Every connection is scheduled to be done At the opposite, German trains in the eastern part are barely on…

> The only place in Western Europe I experienced train to be worst than in Germany is currently in Hungary where there were actual soviet trains. As someone from the region, since when is Hungary 'Western' Europe? We are happy when acknowledged as 'Central' but this is new to me.

Good point, I meant mainly 'within the EU' here.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#104

Post by zerof1l » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:51 AM UTC

I don't think Germans want faster trains, they want punctual ones. How about trying to set a record for trains being punctual?

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#105

Post by jerven » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:51 AM UTC

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #73

cyberax wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Road constructions of the 1960s are not effective for 21st century traffic demands. Citation needed. As I see it, the US is still riding on the coattails of 1960-s road construction. We should be doing more of it, in fact, not sabotaging it with bike lanes and road diets.

Naive intuition says adding more roads and lanes would finally solve the bottlenecks, right? And it does, briefly. But after a little while it's back to bumper to bumper. That’s induced demand [1]: when new capacity just encourages more driving. Counterintuitively perhaps, bike lanes, road diets and public transport actually work better. Give people other ways to move around, and you take pressure off the road system…

I would like to state that good bike lanes and trains also have induced demand. The Netherlands and Switzerland, have demand for more of both (as well as more demand for car lanes as well)

It is just that trains and bikes are much more efficient in terms of land use.

The 3 lane road in front of my house is "good" for 16,000 cars a day. The 2 lane train line a 5 minutes walk from my house is "good" for 120,000 passengers a day. A train line can carry about 10x the traffic of a car lane (in practice) with similar ground usage.

So when a train system has more demand/use than expected (e.g. leman express in the geneva region) there are more options to increase throughput (in the leman express case double level trains) that require less new infrastructure to be build.

When new infrastructure is required, limitations of space mean that a 15 year period from plan to implementation is normal. Which means infrastructure which has more head-room is preferred over quickly saturated ones.

To add the adding of one lane to the A1 for 18KM costs half the total of the leman express infrastructure. But has significantly less benefits in total transit capacity.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#106

Post by ho_schi » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 9:53 AM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #94

doener wrote: post #82

This is the main point of the news: "The Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle route was used for the record-breaking journey without any modifications. According to Nagl, this shows that infrastructure investments create a solid foundation that lasts for generations. The insights gained will help with future renovations and the development of new high-speed trains. The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobi…

This part is still misleading: "The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobility" The test train used is a set from the late 20th century. So old that its regular brethren are already scheduled for retirement. This is the last generation of ICE that was still using separate locomotives (and with that, limited traction) instead of powered wheelsets distributed all over the full length of the tr…

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_S

The theoretical assumed Vmax of this old train should be 440 km/h. The fasted actual speed was 406,9 km/h back in 1988. The test itself was focused on the Velaro Novo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro#/media/File:Wag... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Velaro

Design targets from German Wiki:

    * 15 percent less mass
    * Up to 30 percent less energy required (I guess that is on focus of this test)
    * Target speed 250 between 360 km/h
    * 30% less maintenance costs
    * 10% more seats

I like the concept of the Valero (ICE3) the design with the engines below the floor of passenger cabins is elegant.

The press text is unfocused and seems "Marketing". The DB probably cares more about the fact, that the ten year old track is maintained in good condition. The biggest problem of DB is bad maintenance of tracks and trains. Caused due to the attempt to make it a profitable stock company and weird split-up of tasks between sub-corps and the state as fallback. It should have been remained a one public state railroad not focused on earnings. Sins of deregulation and privatization of the 90ies.

PS: Interestingly Deutsche Lufthansa is known for the well in-house maintenance branch. That's why they're happy with the B747-8. Not so big as the A380-800. The maintenance of four engines doesn't require them much effort. Here everything is in one major corporation and the need for good maintenance quality is intrinsic.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#107

Post by adev_ » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 11:15 AM UTC

holowoodman wrote: post #100

adev_ wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it is the same as in Switzerland, the solution is in helping people get the health care they need. [...] Switzerland SBB/CFF and the German DB can not be compared, not even from far. The Swiss trains are amongst the best in the world in term on punctuality. Delays barely exceed few minutes most of the time. Every connection is scheduled to be done At the opposite, German trains in the eastern part are barely on…

France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger) trains don't cause inefficiencies. Switzerland doesn't have high-speed trains, only low-speed ones. And all timetables are carefully tuned to half- or full-hour station distance intervals that all trains on a track take at the same speed ("Taktfahrplan"). Germany has the worst of…

> France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger

Yes 100% right. Japan has the same where the Shinkansen uses dedicated track. If I do not say a mistake, China does the same too.

The fact it never has been done in a modern country like Germany with a dense high speed train traffic like the ICE is clearly a sign of planning deficit from the authorities.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#108

Post by holowoodman » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 11:37 AM UTC

adev_ wrote: post #107

holowoodman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger) trains don't cause inefficiencies. Switzerland doesn't have high-speed trains, only low-speed ones. And all timetables are carefully tuned to half- or full-hour station distance intervals that all trains on a track take at the same speed ("Taktfahrplan"). Germany has the worst of…

> France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger Yes 100% right. Japan has the same where the Shinkansen uses dedicated track. If I do not say a mistake, China does the same too. The fact it never has been done in a modern country like Germany with a dense high speed train traffic like the ICE is clearly a sign of planning defi…

It's just a difference in aims and circumstances. Japan has multiple train companies operating different networks, so a separate network was the only thing they could build. France accepted the compromise that high-speed TGV stations are far outside of the city areas, like airports, which makes nominal travel times fast, but the first and last miles will always be slow local trains to the city centre. Germany wanted ICE passengers to arrive at the central train station of a city, so using the existing train network at least partially is the only possibility. China has larger distances and no preexisting dense network, so building separate and dedicated is easier. Also, they maybe don't fuss about tearing down a few buildings and disowning a few home-owners who are in the way of their new dedicated high-speed route and station.

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#109

Post by holowoodman » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 11:42 AM UTC

Svip wrote: post #81

chgs wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is on time counted as time at every stop, or just the terminal. It’s easy to fake the terminal times with little impact by padding the timetable. Being on time at every station is far harder. Not sure how you compare a small simple system like Lord which is pretty much one line with a few branches with an integrated multi-national system like the entire Swiss railway either

The answer to your question is "it depends". Some also do weighed calculations, where it's "per passenger", which means trains that have a high passenger load being late have a larger impact than one with few passengers. At least in Denmark, where I am most familiar (though I expect most of Europe to be similar), it's per stop. As for the LIRR, it seems it's only the terminal station that counts: > Thus, a train is c…

Which leads to the common trick: If a train is delayed, it will often skip the last stop and turn at a station before the last. So the train was cancelled and not late at the final destination, therefore doesn't affect the punctuality statistics.

And yes, in Germany this happens and is reflected in rising "cancelled train" statistics. KPIs for Deutsche Bahn managers haven't caught up yet ;)

Re: ICE test train reaches speeds of up to 405.0 km/h

#110

Post by adev_ » Mon, Jun 30, 2025, 11:54 AM UTC

holowoodman wrote: post #108

adev_ wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France has a separate high-speed train network, so speed differences between high-speed (TGV) and low-speed (freight, low class passenger Yes 100% right. Japan has the same where the Shinkansen uses dedicated track. If I do not say a mistake, China does the same too. The fact it never has been done in a modern country like Germany with a dense high speed train traffic like the ICE is clearly a sign of planning defi…

It's just a difference in aims and circumstances. Japan has multiple train companies operating different networks, so a separate network was the only thing they could build. France accepted the compromise that high-speed TGV stations are far outside of the city areas, like airports, which makes nominal travel times fast, but the first and last miles will always be slow local trains to the city centre. Germany wanted…

> Japan has multiple train companies operating different networks, so a separate network was the only thing they could build

The Shinkansen initial network and separated tracks have been built at an age where JRails was still a single centralized company.

The main reason was to create a network with a focus speed and punctuality. And to be fair, it was the right choice and pretty revolutionary at the time.