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The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

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Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#101

Post by davidw »

jeltz wrote: post #91
davidw wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the takehome pay - there are pretty high taxes, so the total that the company is paying might be much higher, and the labor market is very rigid: at least in Italy, it's very difficult to fire someone once they have obtained a 'permanent position'. Still though, I think there are opportunities to be had; things like what Fabrizio Capobianco did with Funambol. I can only find stories in Italian that focus more…

Well, both taxes and salaries are higher in Northern Europe and our companies are still competitive so that is not the reason why the Spanish IT companies are not competitive.

Taxes as a % of GDP are not that much higher, if at all, in northern Europe than in Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenu...

And you get a lot more of them back in various ways in northern Europe.

I think it's a fairly complex question, and that's part of it. Maybe there's actually an opportunity, because I know a bunch of smart developers in Italy who work for less than they would get elsewhere. I know Italy very well, and still wonder what I'm missing, because like you say, there are taxes elsewhere too.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#102

Post by jc79 »

anil_mamede wrote: post #88
jc79 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not agree more! This, among other things, is one of the things that puzzles me the most: almost no products. To that I'll add lack of capability to scale. I've worked at a startup here once, and have seen this lack of capability to scale happen in first hand: unfortunatelly, at the time I was to focused on just being the 'technical guy', and did not have any real input to give (mind you I was just an employee…

We are never old to do what we like. We just need to find the right environment. This environment exists but, of course, we must do something in order to find it. Going to conferences, meet the right people and address the issues of portuguese entrepreneuship. Without effort and some positive criticism we won't be able to change the panorama. Although the scaling issues is due, in some part, to lack of investment (in…

I agree with the difficulty to obtain investment. The ones with the money are the big banks, that still prefer very conservative (patent based!) bussiness, and there isn't much else.

Not so long ago, the dream of a student finishing college here would be an internship on any given big company, even if not paid (and hence, supported by its parents, 95% of the cases), in hopes of then getting a paid job in the same company.

It's incredible how this seemed excelent, but spending the same amount of 'parent money' in trying a startup of your own (or someone else's, I agree with your point) seemed utterly irresponsible.

A 'directory of IT portuguese startups' would be an excelent point to start: perhaps someone already has a cool idea that you not mind working on. Right now I find this kind of information to be really scattered. I've thought of doing this myself, perhaps I should return to this idea.

I've been at the first TechMeetupsLX meeting, it was interessting if not a bit long - seems this was sorted out in the next ones. I hadn't the chance to return, but hope to do it soon enough. Any other suggestions? I fear that the some of the paid conferences are still dominated by the 'big sharks', and no real opportunities are there... is this just an illusion on my part?

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#103

Post by Turing_Machine »

olifante wrote: post #76

The root of the problem is that developers in Portuguese organizations have little "political" power and low social prestige. They are generically put under the "técnicos" (technicians) category, not a very prestigious term. It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff. High class people should manage other people and do not really have any respon…

"It's kind of a class thing: high class people do not dirty their hands with manual labor and boring technical stuff."

There may be some regional variants. A friend of mine who worked with some devs from the UK said that there the split is between guys who only write code (the 'higher class') and guys who might actually know how to plug in an Ethernet cable (the 'lower class').

I don't know if this is true in general, or just of the organization where he worked.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#104

Post by davidw »

narag wrote: post #94
justincormack wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real question is why companies are still not able to compete even with these lower costs. Other inefficiencies and being in the wrong markets?

In a word: yes. I'm subcontracted, so even if my salary is half what it would be in UK, Germany, the cost for the company I work in is not so different. Their fault anyway, why don't they contract me directly? Add to that that rotation is wild. They hire the cheapest people: those who are unemployed and would take any offer. As soon as you're employed, it's orders of magnitude easier to get a job, so hasta luego, Luc…

Why don't foreign companies go there and hire people, though? They can hire people cheaper than having them move to the UK/Germany/US even if they pay above average local rates, they can hire people who otherwise wouldn't move (and even some of the movers will be happier closer to home), and since they're hiring them as part of a large, or at least multinational company, they don't necessarily need those people to have much at all to do with other Spanish/Italian/whatever companies or government.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#105

Post by olifante »

yeureka wrote: post #13

Not surprising. I left Portugal in 2003 to work in the games industry. There were still plenty of jobs in Lisbon then and salaries were not so bad. At the time I thought I would be away for a couple of years "just to get some experience". I would love to go back to be closer to my family and old friends, to enjoy the weather the beaches and nice food, but as another expat told me, our jobs just do not exist in Lisbon…

The average tax burden for Portugal in 2011 was 39%, higher than the OECD average of 35% but not that high compared to the rest of eurozone. Belgium had 56%, Germany 50% and France 49%. Taxes are not the main problem in Portugal. Dysfunctional organisations and an ineffective legal system are.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#106

Post by tluyben2 »

yogar wrote: post #98
tluyben2 wrote: post #8

We just opened up in PT http://appsalad.com/appdesign/nieuw-appsalad-portugal-is-een... (Dutch) and we'll be opening a second office in Faro soon. Most devs want to stay in their country and we don't mind giving them that opportunity. I never understood why people would leave what they love though; be that India or Portugal or whatever; there is plenty to do and live for if you are resourceful and the Portugese I met…

Coming from Greece and currently working in Australia, I see what you mean. Nevertheless, even if there is opportunity for creation there is no such opportunity for survival. When you are in a market with shallow liquidity, the best intentions will not get you far. The near-shoring of course (absorbing liquidity from outside your country) is a potential solution, an attractive one too, but there are significant obsta…

You assume wrong; I want to pay fairly for what you are capable of. I always offer wage + % IF you want. I have been in this business for 20 years and I don't really care about money very much. I need it to feed my chickens, brew my beer and play with my ancient electronics. I actually take pleasure in seeing people become something they never thought they could be. I wake up in the morning thinking about some great project we are doing. And I definitely want my employees to share the wealth if there is any to share.

500 euros (200-300...) is crazy, people going for that we would not hire because they have no idea what they are doing and that reflects in their work. And you can hardly live of 500 euro/month here in the mountains (and it's really cheap here), let alone in a city. So don't assume too quickly :)

I stand by my comment that I think if you have a warm heart for your country you should stay there and help (re)build it. I told this to my former Ukrainien partner who had the choice; go to the US or run the company in Ukraine. He choose the latter after many talks and he is a very rich guy now, having helped around 1000 people to a job in his poor city. That was not me ; that was him, but I do tell always to stay IF your motivation is career/money/happiness. Those are fixable, and even more so, in your own country especially in a crisis.

I am not a patriot by any means; I love the south of Spain, the east of Germany (saksische sweiss) and Portugal (esp Madeira) much more than my country the Netherlands. I am making companies in all these regions to be able to move freely and with pride between them. I am assured i'm helping in my own (little) way and all the regions I like are poor and yet I haven't found any lack of money resources, even in the regions themselves. I can make enough money to live happily WITHIN the regions I like even though people say there is no work/money. It's not me being special or gifted; it's other people are so non-creative, it scares me often.

And no; moving to Germany is not considered a 'risk'. Working for a small company with a year contract is. It's pros/cons; my assumption (which seems to be right with most people) is that people want to live close to family and friends and not move 2000+ km away.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#107

Post by ufo »

aristidesfl wrote: post #99
miguelpais wrote: post #27

I'm one of those about to graduate students from a technical university in Lisbon, and for me, there is no doubt anymore, I'll start to work outside of Portugal. When you look at it from one side, South European countries have everything: they have the food, the weather, good universities, kind and welcoming people (not to say that other countries don't), talent. They have the potential to be the best countries to li…

Maybe the fact European Southern Countries have food, the weather, good universities, and welcoming people makes people not to have to elaborate as much in order to enjoy themselves and live another day. That's one of the factors which contribute for them to be more laid back and invest less in work and organization, leading to competitive disadvantage over the years in other fields.

He is not complaining about a technical disadvantage. The problem they are complaining about is about the current management culture and sunshine and good food doesn't make it any easier to deal with it.

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#108

Post by white_devil »

tluyben2 wrote: post #45
justincormack wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you will find that the tax system (and permits etc) are worse. Tax rates are higher in de/nl but the system is somewhat simpler. Spain, just to pick a random example, just removed a six month process to get a permit to open a retail location. And it is not like you can apply online or anything. I am in the UK where most stuff is even easier (was looking at setting up a company in different European countries,…

Well I have companies in NL/DE/ES/PT and I don't see much difference. There are differences, but frustration wise, they are just all at the same level. In Spain I go with the flow which basically just means stuff takes forever , but everyone seems fine with that.

Why are you talking about "staying and fighting" for your beloved Homeland if you've got companies in various countries? Shouldn't you be happily shoveling truckloads of tax money into your own country's coffers instead of giving it away to others?

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#109

Post by Postmodum »

tluyben2 wrote: post #53
miguelpais wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be quite frank I wonder what is better for the country: staying there, working your ass off and getting just enough to survive, or being outside, opening your horizons, maybe being exposed to new ways of thinking, technologies or ideas, and one day come back and strive to offer to the country what you learned outside. These people that are leaving, they still love they country, and I'm sure most of them still thin…

But I don't think that's true. Portugal (and the other southern countries) have a lot of talent; why let that talent be bought up by outside countries (like mine)? The world is very ripe for near shoring and actually good programmers are incredibly hard to find. For anyone. People are getting tired with Asian 'factories' with people who, usually, derive no pleasure from their work. Simply; if you open a company NOW i…

One of the big problems in Portugal, aside from all the economic issue, is the "employee syndrome" ... at least it's what i call it. In Portugal, it's hard to find people with a entrepreneur'ish spirit.

Everyone want's to be employee and expect the salary at the end of the month without ( and the salary must be really interesting too ).

Oh, and another thing ... people just can't understand that you need to be offer something for the company success other than just sitting on you desk doing what you're told to. It's all about being a worthily asset for the company, other than just being an simple asset.

Yes... i own my own company. Yes, i did employ several people with and without superior degrees. What i found out is that people without superior degree in Portugal are more productive ( of course, there are exceptions ) and in general, have better technical skills than those who just finished university ( this is another problem in Portugal, universities are all about theory ... although, slowly, we can see some changing... ).

Juniors just can't expect to earn the same salary as someone that has more experience. It's all about return of investment. .. and in the IT world, you need to have to be a good ROI.

Of course, salaries in Portugal can't compare to bigger countries as France, Germany, US ... or emerging IT capitals that are living a wave of venture capitals. We are a small country, that is growing in the IT world. And if you think about it, we are really newborns in this world...

Yes, there are great professionals in Portugal ( and prospects too that are in the university ) ... but there's something about the mentality that we must change.

It's all about what you do for a company what they can do for you.

As for the emigration, i think abroad experiences enrich people and sometimes change their way of seing things. Usually, in the principal external markets targeted by emigrants, there's a higher money flow, and the experience of working in a bigger/wealthier company, makes us grow. But the same problem persists ... you need to be a added value for the company... and in most cases, people only understand that when they are faced with the cold reality that they really need to work had to make a difference. :)

Of course, since they earn more money, they will take that with a different spirit.

( and yes, there are really bad companies in Portugal that are full with "professionals" and "directors" that, often, know less than a junior or someone with 5 years of experience in the market. It's the difference between working for money without much enjoyment and working for something you really enjoy while earning money doing it)

Re: The Exodus of Tech from Portugal

#110

Post by tluyben2 »

Postmodum wrote: post #109
tluyben2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I don't think that's true. Portugal (and the other southern countries) have a lot of talent; why let that talent be bought up by outside countries (like mine)? The world is very ripe for near shoring and actually good programmers are incredibly hard to find. For anyone. People are getting tired with Asian 'factories' with people who, usually, derive no pleasure from their work. Simply; if you open a company NOW i…

One of the big problems in Portugal, aside from all the economic issue, is the "employee syndrome" ... at least it's what i call it. In Portugal, it's hard to find people with a entrepreneur'ish spirit. Everyone want's to be employee and expect the salary at the end of the month without ( and the salary must be really interesting too ). Oh, and another thing ... people just can't understand that you need to be offer…

> have better technical skills than those who just finished university ( this is another problem in Portugal, universities are all about theory ... although, slowly, we can see some changing... ).

That is normal; in the Netherlands we have a distinction between practical and theoretical higher education. Universities were not meant to be very practical; they are meant to 'shape your mind' with solid foundations for learning new things and for an academic career. Now this is much different and the actual function of a university, because it's so common to go there, moved from that old view to the realism of the day; students need to actually find a job in corporations. It'll change, albeit slowly.

One of the biggest problems I found in PT is the difference between Lisbon and 'the rest'. I don't know what the fascination is with this city (I have been there many times, but disclaimer: I generally don't like cities at all) besides job opportunity, but outside Lisbon, it's really nice and cheap while in there it's not. So you have the 2 camps; 1 who want to live in Lisbon, 1 who want to live anywhere else. And those two have very different wishes.

Where are you? What does your company do?

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