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A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

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Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#101
post #62
post #54

Ok, so I can create a website, say, the-ai-pirate-bay.com, where I stream AI-reproduced movies. They are not verbatim, so I don't infringe any copyrights.

They will infringe copyright as soon as they are sufficiently similar to the original. You can’t shoot a non-verbatim but clearly recognizable beat-by-beat remake of Star Wars, call it Galaxy Conflict, and get away with monetizing it.

Correct.

You have to call it "Starcrash" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079946/?ref_=ls_t_8). Then it's legal.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#102

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

Yep, broadly capable open models are on track for annihilation. The cost of legally obtaining all the training materials will require hefty backing. Additionally that if you download a model file that contains enough of the source material to be considered infringing (even without using the LLM, assume you can extract the contents directly out of the weights) then it might as well be a .zip with a PDF in it, the mode…

> a model file that contains enough of the source material to be considered infringing

The amount of the source material encoded does not, alone, determine if it is infringing, so this noun phrase doesn't actually mean anything. I know there are some popular myths that contradict this (the commonly-believed "30-second rule" for music, for instance), but they are just that, myths.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#103
post #2

Broadly summarizing. This is OK and fair use: Training LLMs on copyrighted work, since it's transformative. This is not OK and not fair use: pirating data, or creating a big repository of pirated data that isn't necessarily for AI training. Overall seems like a pretty reasonable ruling?

Definitely seems reasonable to say "you can train on this data but you have to have a legal copy" Personally I like to frame most AI problems by substituting a human (or humans) for the AI. Works pretty well most of the time. In this case if you hired a bunch of artists/writers that somehow had never seen a Disney movie and to train them to make crappy Disney clones you made them watch all the movies it certainly wou…

> Personally I like to frame most AI problems by substituting a human (or humans) for the AI. Works pretty well most of the time.

Human time is inherently valuable, computer time is not.

The issue with LLMs is that they allow doing things at a massive scale which would previously be prohibitively time consuming. (You could argue but them how much electricity is worth one human life?)

If I "write" a book by taking another and replacing every word with a synonym, that's obviously plagiarism and obviously copyright infringement. How about also changing the word order? How about rewording individual paragraphs while keeping the general structure? It's all still derivative work but as you make it less detectable, the time and effort required is growing to become uneconomical. An LLM can do it cheaply. It can mix and match parts of many works but it's all still a derivative of those works combined. After all, if it wasn't, it would produce equally good output with a tiny fraction of the training data.

The outcome is that a small group of people (those making LLMs and selling access to their output) get to make huge amounts of money off of the work of a group that is several orders of magnitude larger (essentially everyone who has written something on the internet) without compensating the larger group.

That is fundamentally exploitative, whether the current laws accounted for that situation or not.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#104

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

Yes and no.

In this case, the plaintiffs alleged that Anthropic's LLMs had memorized the works so completely that "if each completed LLM had been asked to recite works it had trained upon, it could have done so", "almost verbatim". The judge assumed for the sake of argument that the allegation was true, and ruled that the conduct was fair use anyway due to the existence of an effective filter. Therefore there was no need to determine whether the allegation was actually true.

So - yes, in the sense that the ruling suggests that distributing an open-weight LLM that memorized copyrighted works to that extent would not be fair use.

But no, in the sense that it's not clear whether any LLMs, especially open-weight LLMs, actually memorize book-length works to that extent. Even the recent study about Llama memorizing a Harry Potter book [1] only said that Llama could reproduce 50-token snippets a decent percentage of the time when given the preceding 50 tokens. That's different from actually being able to recite any substantial portion of the book. If you asked Llama for that, the output would quickly diverge from the original text, and it likely wouldn't be able to get back on track without being re-prompted from the ground truth as the study did.

On the other hand, in the case where the New York Times is suing OpenAI, the NYT has alleged that ChatGPT was able to recite extensive portions of NYT articles verbatim. If true, this might be more dangerous, since news articles are not as long as books but they're equally eligible for copyright protection. So we'll see how that shakes out.

Also note:

- Nothing in the opinion sets formal precedent because it's a district court. But the opinion might still influence later judges.

- See also riskable's sibling comment for another case where a judge addressed the issue more head-on (but wasn't facing the same kind of detailed allegations, I don't think; haven't checked).

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.06370

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#105

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

You can use the copyrighted text for personal purposes.

You can also, in the US, use it for any purposes which fall within the domain of "fair use", which while now also incorporated in the copyright statute, was first identified as an application of the first amendment and, as such, a constitutional limit on what Congress even had the power to prohibit with copyright law (the odd parameters of the statutory exception are largely because it attempted to codify the existing Constitutional case law.)

Purposes which are fair use are very often not at all personal.

(Also, "personal use" that involves copying, creating a derivative work, or using any of the other exclusive rights of a copyright holder without a license or falling into either fair use or another explicit copyright exception are not, generally, allowed, they are just hard to detect and unlikely to be worth the copyright holder's time to litigate even if they somehow were detected.)

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#106

If the US makes it illegal to train LLMs on copyrighted data that isn't going to stop China from doing it and give them an ENORMOUS advantage.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44369227

If the US makes it illegal to train LLMs on copyrighted data, the US will find a solution and not just give up and wait half a decade to see what China does in the meantime.

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#107
post #10
post #2

Broadly summarizing. This is OK and fair use: Training LLMs on copyrighted work, since it's transformative. This is not OK and not fair use: pirating data, or creating a big repository of pirated data that isn't necessarily for AI training. Overall seems like a pretty reasonable ruling?

But those training the LLMs are still using the works, and not just to discuss them, which I think is the point of fair use doctrine. I guess I fail to see how it's any different from me using it in some other way? If I wanted to write a play very loosely inspired by Blood Meridian, it might be transformative, but that doesn't justify me pirating the book. I tend to think copyright should be extremely limited compare…

The judge actually agreed with your first paragraph:

> This order doubts that any accused infringer could ever meet its burden of explaining why downloading source copies from pirate sites that it could have purchased or otherwise accessed lawfully was itself reasonably necessary to any subsequent fair use. There is no decision holding or requiring that pirating a book that could have been bought at a bookstore was reasonably necessary to writing a book review, conducting research on facts in the book, or creating an LLM. Such piracy of otherwise available copies is inherently, irredeemably infringing even if the pirated copies are immediately used for the transformative use and immediately discarded.

(But the judge continued that "this order need not decide this case on that rule": instead he made a more targeted ruling that Anthropic's specific conduct with respect to pirated copies wasn't fair use.)

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#108

If the US makes it illegal to train LLMs on copyrighted data that isn't going to stop China from doing it and give them an ENORMOUS advantage.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44369227 If the US makes it illegal to train LLMs on copyrighted data, the US will find a solution and not just give up and wait half a decade to see what China does in the meantime.

What solution is there?

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#109
I'm surprised we never discuss a previous case of how governments handled a valuable new technology that challenged creative's ability to monetise their work:

Cassette Tapes and Private Copying Levy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

Governments didn't ban tapes but taxed them and fed the proceeds back into the royalty system. An equivalent for books might be an LLM tax funding a negative tax rate for sold books e.g. earn $5 and the gov tops it up. Can't imagine how to ensure it was fair though.

Alternatively, might be an interesting math problem to calculate royalties for the training data used in each user request!

Re: A federal judge sides with Anthropic in lawsuit over training AI on books

#110

One aspect of this ruling [1] that I find concerning: on pages 7 and 11-12, it concedes that the LLM does substantially "memorize" copyrighted works, but rules that this doesn't violate the author's copyright because Anthropic has server-side filtering to avoid reproducing memorized text. (Alsup compares this to Google Books, which has server-side searchable full-text copies of copyrighted books, but only allows user…

Yep, broadly capable open models are on track for annihilation. The cost of legally obtaining all the training materials will require hefty backing. Additionally that if you download a model file that contains enough of the source material to be considered infringing (even without using the LLM, assume you can extract the contents directly out of the weights) then it might as well be a .zip with a PDF in it, the mode…

This technology is a really bad way of storing, reproducing and transmitting the books themselves. It's probabilistic and lossy. It may be possible to reproduce some paragraphs, but no reasonable person would expect to read The Da Vinci Code by prompting the LLM. Surely the marketed use cases and the observed real use by users has to make it clear that the intended and vastly overwhelming use of an LLM is transformative, "digestive" synthesis of many sources to construct a merged, abstracted, generalized system that can function in novel uses, answering never before seen prompts in a useful manner, overwhelmingly without reproducing existing written works. It surely matters what the purpose of the thing is both in intention and observed practice. It's not a viable competing alternative to reading the actual book.
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