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Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

fireborn.mataroa.blog

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Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#101

Post by const_cast »

anonym29 wrote: post #73
opticfluorine wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an RTX 4060 with latest drivers, KDE, and Arch. Wayland works perfectly for me. Maybe Debian has some outdated packages that haven't caught up yet?

"Works on my machine, just use my OS" isn't a solution to my problem, whereas X11 is a solution to my problem.

You're literally running Debian. It's Debian. It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem!

Listen, I run Debian too. But I'm not going to get online and complain out X Y Z not working when I'm running a package from 3 years ago. Please, be for real.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#102

Post by anonym29 »

const_cast wrote: post #101
anonym29 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Works on my machine, just use my OS" isn't a solution to my problem, whereas X11 is a solution to my problem.

You're literally running Debian. It's Debian . It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! Listen, I run Debian too. But I'm not going to get online and complain out X Y Z not working when I'm running a package from 3 years ago . Please, be for real.

>It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem!

No, it's stable, it's reliable, it's the solution to all of the problems I had on Arch, Fedora, and other rolling releases.

And again, Nvidia drivers work perfectly right out of the box on X11.

Wayland? That's a new problem.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#103

Post by LightHugger »

vidarh wrote: post #96
LightHugger wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He stated everyone was welcome regardless of their race or politics. This is only a strongly political stance if you contrast it with Red Hat, whose extremist, racist and illegal discriminatory policies they implemented under the banner of DEI now has them in hot water with 3x workplace discrimination lawsuits. Honestly i don't understand how people can call xlibre political but abide by red hat's active evil.

You left out that he contrasted this with DEI. That is a strongly political stance that to a lot of us is extreme. You're not convincing anyone here. If anything being defended with rants like this is likely to make people even more unwilling to consider this project. I certainly won't touch a project that attracts this kind of defence.

I directly mentioned DEI, obviously i didn't leave it out.

If you support red hat's DEI program then you are defending systematic discrimination on the basis of race and other immutable characteristics. This is an ultimately indefensible position, and one that will come back to bite you. There is nothing extreme about this position unless you are a racist extremist yourself.

You are as a human being morally bankrupt if you're willing to touch a company with multiple active discrimination lawsuits that has shown zero remorse or policy changes, but are pretending that someone mentioning DEI is a real problem (the tool which was used to implement that illegal discrimination, which he personally had to deal with.) People have an inalienable right to defend themselves in every case.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#104

Post by const_cast »

anonym29 wrote: post #102
const_cast wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're literally running Debian. It's Debian . It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! Listen, I run Debian too. But I'm not going to get online and complain out X Y Z not working when I'm running a package from 3 years ago . Please, be for real.

>It's old, it's outdated, yes that's your problem! No, it's stable, it's reliable, it's the solution to all of the problems I had on Arch, Fedora, and other rolling releases. And again, Nvidia drivers work perfectly right out of the box on X11. Wayland? That's a new problem.

You don't have to preach Debian to the choir man - I run Debian.

We're talking about very new developments here. You're running years old packages. Okay? That's not going to work.

When you're running Debian, it's expected you're going to be 3-5 years behind the Linux userspace status quo. So it's absolutely fine you're on X11. I have a desktop on Bookworm running X11 on Nvidia - works great, I love it. I also have a very, very new laptop running Tumbleweed on Wayland and kernel 6.15. X really struggles with new hardware in a way Wayland does not. For me on that computer, Wayland is better in a plethora of ways. I am a bit forced to run a very new kernel and Mesa and all that due to running bleeding edge hardware.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#105

Post by LightHugger »

const_cast wrote: post #100
vidarh wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The protocol is trivially extensible, and have had plenty of extensions that has significant altered how it behaves. Fixing X in a step wise manner wod have been perfectly doable. The problem is that the Wayland proponents didn't just want to fix the things there was agreement was broken, but also wanted to actively break things that would cause an uproar.

But we did do exactly that with X for literal decades. Then the developers of Xorg said "fuck this". I mean, where does the bus stop?

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it.

Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre is ongoing even from publications that have many previous articles praising the same contributor at length. Corporate control of open source is very dangerous to the ecosystem as they also fund the "journalists" writing these articles who are willing to defend every decision they make.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#106

Post by ChocolateGod »

LightHugger wrote: post #105
const_cast wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we did do exactly that with X for literal decades. Then the developers of Xorg said "fuck this". I mean, where does the bus stop?

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

Why would Microsoft want to kill X? It kept back the Linux desktop.

> Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre is ongoing even from publications that have many previous articles praising the same contributor at length

Half the drama is the Xlibre guy involving politics

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#107

Post by opticfluorine »

anonym29 wrote: post #73
opticfluorine wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an RTX 4060 with latest drivers, KDE, and Arch. Wayland works perfectly for me. Maybe Debian has some outdated packages that haven't caught up yet?

"Works on my machine, just use my OS" isn't a solution to my problem, whereas X11 is a solution to my problem.

Wasn't suggesting at all that you use my distro or that you can't use X11 as your solution. Debian is great and I use it for all of my servers. I'm just responding to the assertion that Wayland doesn't work with NVIDIA today, which is really only true if you are using older packages for a more stable distro. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not accurate to represent the current state of Wayland based on a distro known for using older packages.

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#108

Post by holowoodman »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #86
holowoodman wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DRM is literally the 3D acceleration driver framework for Linux. It has been around for decades and is same set of drivers that are used for any sort of accelerated graphics in X. Yes, exactly. And Wayland ignored it for years, from the start, and only later slowly adopted it as an extension. > DMA is part of the basic architecture of modern computers. Yes, I know. DMA is even older and not limited to Linux or Grap…

> Yes, exactly. And Wayland ignored it for years, from the start, and only later slowly adopted it as an extension. DRM is not part of Wayland, and Wayland does not use DRM. Wayland is the protocol between the display server and application, DRM is a functionality provided by the kernel to allow user space applications to use and share graphics hardware. The display server can use DRM, as will applications wanting to…

https://wayland.app/protocols/drm-lease-v1

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#109

Post by holowoodman »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #106
LightHugger wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This didn't happen because redhat/ibm/microsoft took control of the project and decided they wanted to kill it. They have said this directly on social media that this is their explicit goal so it's not as if this is a conspiracy of some sort, it's just their publicly stated goal. They then deliberately stopped merging changes and left it to rot until the contributors got frustrated enough to fork it. Now a massive ga…

Why would Microsoft want to kill X? It kept back the Linux desktop. > Now a massive gamergate-esque coordinated character assassination campaign against the creator of xlibre is ongoing even from publications that have many previous articles praising the same contributor at length Half the drama is the Xlibre guy involving politics

> Why would Microsoft want to kill X? It kept back the Linux desktop.

Well, we'll see what "progress" Wayland will bring. Maybe in another 15 years, when it might be halfway "done"...

Re: Wayland is growing up. and now we don't have a choice

#110

Post by dang »

bmacho wrote: post #14
anonym29 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? I get that X11 has security issues, but NVIDIA drivers and Wayland still seem to have no support now and no support planned for the future, so Wayland is a non-negotiable non-option for many (most?) Linux desktop users, including mys…

> Can you elaborate more on discussions about XLibre being banned on here? Are accounts that mention it getting banned? Is there just mass downvoting by partisans with some kind of agenda? YC moderators are hiding the articles from the front page. x11libre got 2 active discussions here according to https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... and both got removed from the front page - https://news.…

Those articles were flagged by users, not moderators, and I'm not sure moderators even saw them (I didn't).

The topic isn't banned. More substantive articles would stand a better chance of not getting flagged, though.

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