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Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

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Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#101

Post by Perizors »

koverstreet wrote: post #91
Arainach wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

Personally, I think the nicest thing I can do, for my users, and for the engineers who come after me, is to write code that works, and write it in such a way that other people can figure out what it does without wanting to gouge their own eyes out. Clearly, we do not have the same goals.

It is not mutually exclusive tho

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#102

Post by kps »

Arainach wrote: post #40
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

> do better

I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#103

Post by gspencley »

mcgrath_sh wrote: post #73
gspencley wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally care about language choices in code, but I'll play devil's advocate and speculate as to why a business might be concerned. 1. Reputational harm in the event that code needs to be shared. Say, the code gets read in court, or an outside consultant is brought in who is given access to the code. The company likely wants to maintain the same standard of professionalism that they expect when their employ…

I can swear a lot while talking. I have never written a curse word in my code, especially professionally. Just seems odd and not useful? I wouldn't be offended if I came across one, but it seems weird to use in a professional setting? A lot of the times I have seen inappropriate words used were not in any context and were used as a "joke" when logging/debugging. So "dicks 01" or "fuck me 01" instead of a bland "check…

> So "dicks 01" or "fuck me 01" instead of a bland "check 01" or whatever. For some reason, that seems much more unprofessional than a comment like "this code is shitty but works, need to clean up."

Agreed.

Context matters a lot. People say "shitty code" all the time. I don't see that as unprofessional. But "dicks01" I would probably change if I came across it in code. Not because I would find it offensive, but because it serves no purpose other than to be juvenile... and that can easily be counter-productive if the goal is easy to read and maintain code.

With respects to "shitty code", I'm not even sure that I would personally even consider the word "shit" to be a swear word in 2025. I'm reminded of the TV show on Showtime called Bullshit (by Penn & Teller). They wanted to name the show "Humbug", which was considered profane in the early 20th century when Houdini was alive and famous. But Showtime didn't like it because they figured it wouldn't land with a modern audience. "Bullshit" it was.

That said, the article even includes the word "crap" (though perhaps they are making the point that it is replacing other, "more profane" words). That one strikes me as odd. If that is considered rude and offensive, then surely "humbug" ought to be as well. Probably very culture-specific.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#104

Post by perching_aix »

koverstreet wrote: post #96
perching_aix wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)" While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. > After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. Yeah dude, tell us about all the countries where cursing isn't impolite and unprofessional.

> While hordes of people peddle that everyone should be using it like gospel. You don't get that kind of widespread usage by mere faddism and preaching. A lot of people had to find it to be genuinely better than the alternatives. Maybe the unprofessional hackers knew what they were doing after all.

Not consistently mutually exclusive. I consider Linux awful, but that doesn't mean I'd advise us to migrate to Windows Server.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#105

Post by dogleash »

Arainach wrote: post #40
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

>people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone

It's not zero fun, but everyone understands it's a sign the vibes will be up-right, right?

edit: that's not to say you don't want that, but that's what it is

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#106

Post by [deleted] »

SapporoChris wrote: post #100
rfrey wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that you are slipping in the words "respectful" and "professional" and assuming the benefit of their positive connotations without an argument that simply omitting the occasional well-placed curse is indeed "professional". I think so-called "professional" speech - which I'd call bland and often ineffective speech - is professional in the same way that a suit and tie is professional. It's a uniform to ensure…

Vulgarity is a crutch used by those without the ability to communicate effectively. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-swearing-a-sig...

[deleted]

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#107

Post by falcor84 »

kps wrote: post #102
Arainach wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

> do better I find that expression far more offensive than ‘fuck’ or ‘shit’. Similarly (and non-exhaustively): ‘bad take’; ‘not a good look’; ‘this ain't it’; ‘… not the … you think it is’; ‘…, actually’. They're all personal insults. “This code is crap” is fine; “You're crap” is not.

As I see it, there's nothing offensive about "do better" - it's just asking the person to not repeat the same (ostensibly misguided) thing they did before.

On the other hand, there's Kratos's “Don't be sorry, be better”, which did hit me hard when I reached that part in God of War 2018. That one hit me on a very personal level.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#108

Post by wat10000 »

thrwwy451 wrote: post #53
Arainach wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

It happens to run on billions of devices, after corporations realized they can profit from "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu)". > and is maintained by people around the world of all types. You seem to think that the whole world shares your definition of "polite". After living in a few quite different countries, I have to disagree. The diversity out there is huge. There's…

There's huge diversity out there in coding styles as well, but I'd be rightfully derided or ignored if I suggested that meant that Linux shouldn't have a style guide.

For some reason, "tabs are banned" and "curly braces must be on their own line" are acceptable rules, but "no curse words" is Oppressive Corporate Soullessness.

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#109

Post by rascul »

javcasas wrote: post #48
Arainach wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully in a few decades the last of the people who think that using respectful discourse means no fun can be had will be gone and we can stop rehashing these threads. You're contributing to something that runs on billions of devices across the world and is maintained by people around the world of all types. If you can't describe your code, your reasons, and your notes politely, do better.

There are two types of people: the ones that write the code, find the bugs (including hardware ones), find the bad design decisions (including the ones they wrote themselves)... and the ones that complain that they found a swearword in the source code they never see because compilation step. Or as they say in the army: do, lead, or get out of the way.

> do, lead, or get out of the way.

lead, follow, or get out of the way

Re: Occurences of swearing in the Linux kernel source code over time

#110

Post by falcor84 »

javcasas wrote: post #42
holowoodman wrote: post #2

Theory: the shift towards lesser swearwords is a sign of corporatization, making the linux source a soulless bland hellscape of confirmity.

I have never worked on a big corporation. But I find interesting about corporations forbidding swearwords in code. I mean, the people responsible for forbidding swearwords rarely read code. And if they read code with any frequency and are somewhat proficient at it, most likely they have their own list of swearwords. Also we should look to add more keywords to programming languages that trigger naïve filters. I'm all…

> the people responsible for forbidding swearwords rarely read code.

In a previous workplace, the people in charge prohibited swearing in our code after they had the pleasure of reading those swearwords in a stack trace within a log generated by our software, which we received attached to a complaint email from a major customer.

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