Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

tomshardware.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 197 posts

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#101

Post by atoav »

Retric wrote: post #93
wtallis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we know that floppy disks and drives will wear out, and they have few if any sources for new repair parts. So the fact that the system is still more or less working today doesn't mean it isn't doomed and needs to be replaced before experiencing a catastrophic unrecoverable failure.

Sure, but the timeline before it’s a significant issue easily extends another 20 years.

Maybe. The problem is that you don't want to have to deal with that maybe in some applications.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#102

Post by dylan604 »

uselesswords wrote: post #89
dylan604 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For anyone considering doing development in this space, sign up for a 20 hour instrument flying ground school, preferably one taught by a retired old fart rather than a 25 year old “instructor” with no actual experience. That's a bit overkill in the world of DOGE. They'll just use some AI to design a system by a bunch of 20-somethings that have no experience whatsoever. Then, they'll come here and brag about it.

Nobody even mentioned DOGE

Well, since nobody mentioned, then I guess that means they don't exist?

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#103

Post by userbinator »

ajxs wrote: post #94
evanjrowley wrote: post #75

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

Operating systems have gotten a whole lot more reliable since Windows 95. The way I remember it, Windows 98 would regularly corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled. I'd done it so many times that I could pretty much recite the license key from memory. Modern Linux is rock solid. Even Windows 10 is very stable. They might be 'bloated', but modern OS's are way, way more stable.

corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled

In my experience that's normally the fault of third-party software, and otherwise quite easy to determine and avoid/fix. Now OSes with more protections just hide those bugs, causing most software to regress to a barely-working state.

I ran 98SE as a daily driver from late 1999 until 2010, and it was reinstalled at most 3 times, not even coinciding with hardware upgrades.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#104

Post by jandrewrogers »

ptero wrote: post #95
buildsjets wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What non-pilot techies fail to comprehend is that the entire ATC system is designed to operate in a no-communication failure mode. This includes features such as the paper strips, mandatory holding points, timed approaches, clearance void times, etc. It is all designed so if you have a complete communication failure in IFR conditions you can land without hitting anyone else. Any fancy new system of, for example an in…

There is definitely value in stability and the US system worked well for a long time, but it is not the only way for a safe ATC. So OK, if you want to do development in this space, do learn about the US setup from a retired old fart who worked with paper strips and thinks the system should stay like this forever. But also learn about systems in Europe, Japan and other places; and realize that ATC can move away from t…

The irony is that the US routinely uses much more capable software for almost identical purposes in domains like battle space management. It isn’t like the US doesn’t have this software, more that the FAA doesn’t consider anything derivative of that tech as an option.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#105

Post by userbinator »

Aside from that, the upgrades to this critical infrastructure should be resistant to hacking and other vulnerabilities

They should realise that, unlike e.g. USB drives or SSDs or even HDDs[1], floppy disks are dumb raw media and cannot contain any "hidden" behaviour, and the failure modes are well-known.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735424

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#106

Post by PapaPalpatine »

evanjrowley wrote: post #75

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

Let's be a little more reasonable. I don't think anyone is saying we need AI. There are numerous other technological advances between floppy drives and AI that our air traffic control system could benefit.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#107

Post by Osiris »

userbinator wrote: post #103
ajxs wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operating systems have gotten a whole lot more reliable since Windows 95. The way I remember it, Windows 98 would regularly corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled. I'd done it so many times that I could pretty much recite the license key from memory. Modern Linux is rock solid. Even Windows 10 is very stable. They might be 'bloated', but modern OS's are way, way more stable.

corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled In my experience that's normally the fault of third-party software, and otherwise quite easy to determine and avoid/fix. Now OSes with more protections just hide those bugs, causing most software to regress to a barely-working state. I ran 98SE as a daily driver from late 1999 until 2010, and it was reinstalled at most 3 times, not even coinciding with hardware upgra…

Or of just a power outage or driver causing a loss of write back cache.

95 and 98 and ME crashed on a regular basis. I specifically remember upgrading from ME to XP and being so happy with the massively improved stability of the NT kernel over the 9x kernels.

If you think that's 9x was stable and reliable, you may be thinking very nostalgicly.

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#108

Post by ht_th »

Osiris wrote: post #107
userbinator wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

corrupt itself and need to be manually reinstalled In my experience that's normally the fault of third-party software, and otherwise quite easy to determine and avoid/fix. Now OSes with more protections just hide those bugs, causing most software to regress to a barely-working state. I ran 98SE as a daily driver from late 1999 until 2010, and it was reinstalled at most 3 times, not even coinciding with hardware upgra…

Or of just a power outage or driver causing a loss of write back cache. 95 and 98 and ME crashed on a regular basis. I specifically remember upgrading from ME to XP and being so happy with the massively improved stability of the NT kernel over the 9x kernels. If you think that's 9x was stable and reliable, you may be thinking very nostalgicly.

I am not so sure. I've ran 98 on bad hardware, and it crashed regularly. So much so, that I installed linux on it already in 1998, and that was much more stable. It only crashed now and then. No doubt in both cases the poor hardware was the cause of it.

Anyway, two years later I got a brand-new laptop with good hardware that was running 98se. As far as I remember, it didn't crash during normal usage. By then I was studying computer science, and would sometimes write or run programs that would make it crash, but that was on me. I did dual boot in Linux, and that didn't have any problems on that machine either.

Fun fact, I still have that laptop, it's over 25 years old now, but it still works and runs Windows 98se!

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#109

Post by scott_w »

evanjrowley wrote: post #75

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

> If it works, then don't change it.

As the article points out: the hardware is at risk of physically failing and it’s getting harder to replace like for like. That’s the reason for looking at an upgrade. Hell, even turning the machines off to replace them is a challenge since some systems need to run 24/7!

Re: FAA to eliminate floppy disks used in air traffic control systems

#110

Post by XorNot »

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #96
evanjrowley wrote: post #75

If it works, then don't change it. I would trust a floppy-powered Windows 95 system over the horror show that passes for common operating systems in 2025. What will they think of next? Adding AI to the ATC system?

Does it work? Sure. You have to ask more questions. How much does it cost to keep it working? How much would it cost to upgrade? If we do nothing, along what sort of timeline can we expect it to stop working, or become cost prohibitive to maintain?

Well also, 20 years is less time then you think. For a system of this magnitude, deploying the replacement could easily take 5 years to get all the way through to full completion. So that's 1/4 of your runway gone right there.

Every year you delay is pushing that lower, and then there's whether the funding is available because you're in fairweather economic conditions or if crisis will happen concordantly with some other crisis (I.e. do you want to be stuck replacing air traffic control systems in a rush because some war has wiped out the floppy supply chain right as your air logistics is a critical issue?)

Post reply on HN