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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#101

This happened with the introduction of smartphones too. Every slashdot post had a haughty and upvoted ‘why would i want such a thing!!!’. It was obviously huge. You could see it taking off. Yet a lot of people proudly displayed ignorance and backed each other up on it to the point that discussion around the topic was often drowned out by the opposition to change. Now today it takes minutes of playing with ai coding a…

Smartphones were financially viable from day 1, though. I think LLMs will be used a lot and in a lot of places but the current level of investment they're getting right now feels out of line to me. Kind of like what I expect them to get in 10 years from now, when they're mature.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#102
post #37

>but it’s bad at rust I have to say, my ability to learn Rust was massively accelerated via LLMs. I highly recommend them for learning a new skill. I feel I'm roughly at the point (largely sans LLMs) now where I can be nearly as productive in Rust as Python. +1 to RustRover as well, which I strongly prefer to any other IDE.

I have to say, my ability to learn Rust was massively accelerated via LLMs.

How would you know?

If you didn't know Rust already, how would you know the LLM was teaching you the right things and the best way to do things?

Just because it compiles doesn't mean it works. The world is full of bad, buggy, insecure, poor code that compiles.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#103

I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the l…

+1

Writing code is easier than long term maintenance. Any programmer is able to write so much code that he will not be able to maintain it. Unless there are good AI tools helping with maintenance there is no point to use generative tools for production code. From my experience AI tools are great for prototyping or optimizing procrastination.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#104
post #6

One thing that I find truly amazing is just the simple fact that you can now be fuzzy with the input you give a computer, and get something meaningful in return. Like, as someone who grew up learning to code in the 90s it always seemed like science fiction that we'd get to a point where you could give a computer some vague human level instructions and get it more or less do what you want.

>simple fact that you can now be fuzzy with the input you give a computer, and get something meaningful in return

I got into this profession precisely because I wanted to give precise instructions to a machine and get exactly what I want. Worth reading Dijkstra, who anticipated this, and the foolishness of it, half a century ago

"Instead of regarding the obligation to use formal symbols as a burden, we should regard the convenience of using them as a privilege: thanks to them, school children can learn to do what in earlier days only genius could achieve. (This was evidently not understood by the author that wrote —in 1977— in the preface of a technical report that "even the standard symbols used for logical connectives have been avoided for the sake of clarity". The occurrence of that sentence suggests that the author's misunderstanding is not confined to him alone.) When all is said and told, the "naturalness" with which we use our native tongues boils down to the ease with which we can use them for making statements the nonsense of which is not obvious.[...]

It may be illuminating to try to imagine what would have happened if, right from the start our native tongue would have been the only vehicle for the input into and the output from our information processing equipment. My considered guess is that history would, in a sense, have repeated itself, and that computer science would consist mainly of the indeed black art how to bootstrap from there to a sufficiently well-defined formal system. We would need all the intellect in the world to get the interface narrow enough to be usable"

Welcome to prompt engineering and vibe coding in 2025, where you have to argue with your computer to produce a formal language, that we invented in the first place so as to not have to argue in imprecise language

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD667...

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#105
post #73

Soon all coding will look like L3 support - debugging something you've never seen before, and under pressure. AI is really taking away the fun parts from everything and leaving just the drudgery in place.

“What do you mean you want to think about our architecture? Just get the LLM to do it, and we’ll get it to fix it if anything goes wrong”

“No we’re not allocating any time to thinking about the design, just get the LLM to do it”

I’m so excited for the bleak future.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#106

The argument seems to be that for an expert programmer, who is capable of reading and understanding AI agent code output and merging it into a codebase, AI agents are great. Question: If everyone uses AI to code, how does someone become an expert capable of carefully reading and understanding code and acting as an editor to an AI? The expert skills needed to be an editor -- reading code, understanding its implication…

I dont know if im convinced by this. Like if we were talking about novels, you don't have to be a writer to check grammar and analyze plot structure in a passable way. It is possible to learn by reading instead of doing.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#107

I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the l…

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#108

I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the l…

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#109

I have one very specific retort to the 'you are still responsible' point. High school kids write lots of notes. The notes frequently never get read, but the performance is worse without them: the act of writing them embeds them into your head. I allegedly know how to use a debugger, but I haven't in years: but for a number I could count on my fingers, nearly every bug report I have gotten I know exactly down to the l…

Exactly. See also https://hazelweakly.me/blog/stop-building-ai-tools-backwards... for a detailed look at this aspect of AI coding.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#110
post #98

Sometimes i feel like people who really like AI have a very different experience programming then i do. They are constantly talking about AI doing all the tedious boilerplate bullshit. Don't get me wrong, some of my code is that too and its not fun. However the pro-AI people talk as if 80% of your day is dealing with that. For me its simply a rare enough occurence that the value proposition isn't that big. If that is…

When I see someone talk about the reams of boilerplate they’re getting the LLM to write for them, I really do wonder what godawful sounding tools and tech-stack they’re being subjected to.
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