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Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

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Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#101

Post by TeMPOraL »

paxys wrote: post #65
spiderice wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there very well might be a time very soon where human's no longer offer economic value to the software engineering process. If you could (and currently you can't) pay an AI $10k/year to do what a human could do in a year, why would you pay the human 6 figures? Or even $20k? Nobody is claiming that human's won't have jobs simply because "we have accomplished everything this is to do". It's that humans will offer z…

And there might be a giant asteroid that strikes the earth a few years down the line ending human civilization. If there is some magic $10k AI that can fully replace a $200k software engineer then I'd love to see it. Until that happens this entire discussion is science fiction.

It's not. Consider that replacing the only $200k software engineer on the project is different than replacing the third or tenth $200k software engineer on the project. To the extent AI is improving productivity of those engineers, it reduces the need for adding more engineers to that team. That may mean firing some of them, or just not hiring new ones (or fewer of them) as the project expands, as existing ones + AI can keep up with increased workload.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#102

Post by eikenberry »

diggan wrote: post #40
infinitebattery wrote: post #23

From this commit: https://github.com/cloudflare/workers-oauth-provider/commit/... === "Fix Claude's bug manually. Claude had a bug in the previous commit. I prompted it multiple times to fix the bug but it kept doing the wrong thing. So this change is manually written by a human. I also extended the README to discuss the OAuth 2.1 spec problem." === This is super relatable to my experience trying to use these AI tool…

> They can get halfway there and then struggle immensely. Restart the conversation from scratch. As soon as you get something incorrect, begin from the beginning. It seems to me like any mistake in a messages chain/conversation instantly poisons the output afterwards, even if you try to "correct" it. So if something was wrong at one point, you need to go back to the initial message, and adjust it to clarify the promp…

I thought Claude still has a problem generating the same output for the same input? That you can't just rewind and rerun and get to the same point again.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#103

Post by NitpickLawyer »

multimoon wrote: post #74

I think this reinforces that “vibecoding” is silly and won’t survive. It still needed immensely skilled programmers to work with it and check its output, and fix several bugs it refused to fix. Like anything else it will be a tool to speed up a task, but never do the task on its own without supervision or someone who can already do the task themselves, since at a minimum they have to already understand how the servic…

I don't think it does. Vibecoding is currently best suited for low-stakes stuff. Get a gui up, crud stuff, write an app for a silly one time use, etc. There's a ton of usage there. And it's putting that power in the hands of people that didn't have the capabilities before.

This isn't vibecoding. This is LLM-assisted coding.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#104

Post by TeMPOraL »

paxys wrote: post #98
spiderice wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If experts were saying the astroid will hit earth in the next 5 years, would it still be science fiction? You acting like those two scenarios are the same is disingenuous. Fuck that.

Remove all the "experts" who have a major conflict of interest (running AI startups, selling AI courses, wanting to pump their company's stock price by associating with AI) and you'll find that very few actual experts in the field hold this view.

Yup, because it's a stupid view. Good enough AI is right here, right now, today; it's already impacting day-to-day work in the software industry. That one is blindingly obvious to anyone who actually bothers to look around. You don't need experts to tell you the water is wet. It takes something special to try and deny this.

It may not manifest as job loss yet, but the market response to changes is a whole other thing. For one, it's likely to first manifest as slowing down hiring relative to amount of projects being started and then released. Software is a growing market after all.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#105

Post by kentonv »

paxys wrote: post #10

This is exactly the direction I expect AI-assisted coding to go in. Not software engineers being kicked out and some business person pressing a few buttons to have a fully functional app (as is playing out in a lot of fantasies on LinkedIn & X), but rather experienced engineers using AI to generate bits of code and then meticulously reviewing and testing them. The million dollar (perhaps literally) question is – coul…

It took me a few days to build the library with AI.

I estimate it would have taken a few weeks, maybe months to write by hand.

That said, this is a pretty ideal use case: implementing a well-known standard on a well-known platform with a clear API spec.

In my attempts to make changes to the Workers Runtime itself using AI, I've generally not felt like it saved much time. Though, people who don't know the codebase as well as I do have reported it helped them a lot.

I have found AI incredibly useful when I jump into other people's complex codebases, that I'm not familiar with. I now feel like I'm comfortable doing that, since AI can help me find my way around very quickly, whereas previously I generally shied away from jumping in and would instead try to get someone on the team to make whatever change I needed.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#106

Post by stego-tech »

realreality wrote: post #90
stego-tech wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it, for the simple reason that literal plumbers still make excellent money because plumbing is ultimately bespoke output built on standards. Everyone wants to automate the (proverbial) plumbing, until shit spews everywhere and there’s nobody to blame but yourself.

Plumbers make excellent money because regulations require licensed plumbers to do the work, and plumbing unions have a financial interest in limiting the number of plumbers. But anybody can do plumbing. It’s not rocket science.

> regulations require licensed plumbers to do the work

Regulations come about because of repeated failures that end up harming the public. Regulations aren’t a dirty word, and aren’t obstacles to be “disrupted” in most cases.

> plumbing unions have a financial interest in limiting the number of plumbers

Golly gee, it’s almost as if - because we live in a society where everyone must work in order to survive - that skilled professionals have a vested interest in ensuring only qualified candidates may join their ranks, to make it harder to depress wages below subsistence levels (the default behavior of unregulated capital).

> But anybody can do plumbing. It’s not rocket science.

Oh wow, I had no idea I was qualified to design sewage infrastructure for my township just because I plumbed my Amazon bidet into the cold water line! Sure glad there’s no regulations stopping me from becoming a licensed plumber since apparently that’s all it takes to succeed!

Sarcasm aside, your argument holds about as much substance as artificial sweetener: it sounds informed and wise, but anyone with substantial experience in reality and collaborating with other people knows that all you’re spewing is ignorance of the larger systems at work and their interplay.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#107

Post by krooj »

infinitebattery wrote: post #23

From this commit: https://github.com/cloudflare/workers-oauth-provider/commit/... === "Fix Claude's bug manually. Claude had a bug in the previous commit. I prompted it multiple times to fix the bug but it kept doing the wrong thing. So this change is manually written by a human. I also extended the README to discuss the OAuth 2.1 spec problem." === This is super relatable to my experience trying to use these AI tool…

The comment in lines 163 - 172 make some claims that are outright false and/or highly A/S dependent, to the point where I question the validity of this post entirely. While it's possible that an A/S can be pseudo-generated based on lots of training data, each implementation makes very specific design choices: i.e.: Auth0's A/S allows for a notion of "leeway" within the scope of refresh token grant flows to account for network conditions, but other A/S implementations may be far more strict in this regard.

My point being: assuming you have RFCs (which leave A LOT to the imagination) and some OSS implementations to train on, each implementation usually has too many highly specific choices made to safely assume an LLM would be able to cobble something together without an amount of oversight effort approaching simply writing the damned thing yourself.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#108

Post by dragonwriter »

stego-tech wrote: post #106
realreality wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plumbers make excellent money because regulations require licensed plumbers to do the work, and plumbing unions have a financial interest in limiting the number of plumbers. But anybody can do plumbing. It’s not rocket science.

> regulations require licensed plumbers to do the work Regulations come about because of repeated failures that end up harming the public. Regulations aren’t a dirty word, and aren’t obstacles to be “disrupted” in most cases. > plumbing unions have a financial interest in limiting the number of plumbers Golly gee, it’s almost as if - because we live in a society where everyone must work in order to survive - that ski…

> Regulations come about because of repeated failures that end up harming the public.

Sometimes, but see also the concepts of “iron triangles” and “regulatory capture”.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#109

Post by philipwhiuk »

kentonv wrote: post #105
paxys wrote: post #10

This is exactly the direction I expect AI-assisted coding to go in. Not software engineers being kicked out and some business person pressing a few buttons to have a fully functional app (as is playing out in a lot of fantasies on LinkedIn & X), but rather experienced engineers using AI to generate bits of code and then meticulously reviewing and testing them. The million dollar (perhaps literally) question is – coul…

It took me a few days to build the library with AI. I estimate it would have taken a few weeks, maybe months to write by hand. That said, this is a pretty ideal use case: implementing a well-known standard on a well-known platform with a clear API spec. In my attempts to make changes to the Workers Runtime itself using AI, I've generally not felt like it saved much time. Though, people who don't know the codebase as…

> Though, people who don't know the codebase as well as I do have reported it helped them a lot.

My problem I guess is that maybe this is just Dunning-Kruger esq. When you don't know what you don't know you get the impression it's smart. When you do, you think it's rubbish.

Like when you see a media report on a subject you know about and you see it's inaccurate but then somehow still trust the media on a subject you're a non-expert on.

Re: Cloudlflare builds OAuth with Claude and publishes all the prompts

#110

Post by stego-tech »

btown wrote: post #97
stego-tech wrote: post #53

On the one hand, I would expect LLMs to be able to crank out such code when prompted by skilled engineers who also understand prompting these tools correctly. OAuth isn’t new, has tons of working examples to steal as training data from public projects, and in a variety of existing languages to suit most use cases or needs. On the other hand, where I remain a skeptic is this constant banging-on that somehow this will…

It's said that much of research is data janitorial work, and from my experience that's not just limited to the machine learning space. Every research scientist wishes that they had an army of engineers to build bespoke tooling for their niche, so they could get back to trying ideas at the speed of thought rather than needing to spend a day writing utility functions for those tools and poring over tables to spot anoma…

> Vibe-coding won't be a net creativity gain to a researcher affected by vibe-immigration-policy, vibe-grant-availability, and vibe-firings, for all of which the unpredictability is a punitive design goal.

Quite literally this is what I’m trying to get at with my resistance to LLM adoption in the current environment. We’re not using it to do hard work, we’re throwing it everywhere in an intentional decision to dumb down more people and funnel resources and control into fewer hands.

Current AI isn’t democratizing anything, it’s just a shinier marketing ploy to get people to abandon skilled professions and leave the bulk of the populace only suitable for McJobs. The benefits of its use are seen by vanishingly few, while its harms felt by distressingly many.

At present, it is a tool designed to improve existing neoliberal policies and wealth pumps by reducing the demand for skilled labor without properly compensating those affected by its use, nor allowing an exit from their walled gardens (because that is literally what all these XaaS AI firms are - walled gardens of pattern matchers masquerading as intelligence).

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