Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet • Hacker News Board

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#101

Post by like_any_other » Wed, May 28, 2025, 11:59 AM UTC

Mindwipe wrote: post #96

like_any_other wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright is covered by the Berne convention, which prohibits neither circumvention nor reverse-engineering, so even in this "what you're proposing couldn't easily be done without also doing this other thing, so I'm going to pretend you've proposed that other thing also, but I won't say so explicitly" interpretation, that is not true.

The Berne Convention has been modified multiple times, including by the WIPO Copyright Treaty, which incorporates a requirement for all signatories to implement an anti-circumvention law. https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/

No, the WIPO Copyright Treaty is separate from the Berne Convention, and did not modify it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIPO_Copyright_Treaty

Furthermore, this whole discussion began with claiming it's impossible to undo anti-circumvention/reverse-engineering, without abandoning copyright entirely, because international treaties. Yet these treaties were modified multiple times, as well as new ones entered into. If it's possible to change these treaties to further encroach IP laws into our lives, why would it not be possible to change them in the other direction?

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#102

Post by esseph » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:01 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #73

Mindwipe wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would effectively have to exit all international copyright law treaties to do so, which is defacto removing any international recognition of copyright for works from your country.

Not really. A digital lock is not a creative endeavour in the same way we think of books or records.

Cryptography isn't creative?

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#103

Post by isodev » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

usrme wrote: post #10

The link to the discussed talk is at the very bottom of the post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydVmzg_SJLw

Just watched the talk, it's one of the best opening tech keynote I've ever seen

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#104

Post by rwmj » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:16 PM UTC

esseph wrote: post #102

rwmj wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. A digital lock is not a creative endeavour in the same way we think of books or records.

Cryptography isn't creative?

These digital locks aren't usually inventing creative new cryptography (at least not the ones which are secure).

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#105

Post by bootsmann » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:25 PM UTC

octo888 wrote: post #34

bootsmann wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really funny to me that with both the AI act and GDPR, you will see swathes of threads of people on HN bashing the law only to then later discover the purpose of this legislation from first principles.

The same could come to Europe (lowballing broke people), because you can just make employees give their consent by baking it into all employment contracts. Just like the working time directive opt-out (HR say "take it or leave it" to 99.9% of people). It probably already happens where it's already acceptable to request financial checks such as the finance industry.

The problem is the party selling that data actually. The nurses would need to consent that whomever the data broker got that data from to share their data with the broker and for the broker to share that data with the nursing service.

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#106

Post by octo888 » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:46 PM UTC

gampleman wrote: post #99

octo888 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Which laws? Putting it in the contract is giving your permission. You're allowed to give your permission under GDPR. A similar thing happened with the Working Time Directive - almost all contracts in my country make you agree to opt-out and that's been like that for over 15 years

That's not how European courts have been interpreting it. When they say "free consent" they do mean free as in beer, so a "consent or loose your job" provisions would almost certainly be thrown out.

What job is being lost when you are applying for a new job?

> That's not how European courts have been interpreting it

Any particular relevant cases I can lookup?

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#107

Post by mrpotato » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:52 PM UTC

tmjwid wrote: post #13

For further listening, Cory has produced a podcast for CBC that might be a good accompaniment to this article called "Understood: Who Broke the Internet?".

Didn't know this[1] existed, thanks

[1] https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcasts/1353

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#108

Post by octo888 » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:53 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #93

octo888 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. Which laws? Putting it in the contract is giving your permission. You're allowed to give your permission under GDPR. A similar thing happened with the Working Time Directive - almost all contracts in my country make you agree to opt-out and that's been like that for over 15 years

> Putting it in the contract is giving your permission. You're allowed to give your permission under GDPR. AFAIK the company must make it opt-in, non-mandatory and provide a way to change your mind at any moment.

Yes, as I said, by putting it in the employment contract when applying for a job.

Honestly it's hilarious how some people view GDPR. They think CEOs lose sleep at night worrying about it, that they might go to jail for it, or have to pay 100M Euro fine for a breach of it. It's simply not the case.

The reality of EU directives and regulations are very different to how they are sold. Many people fall prey to the marketing

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#109

Post by octo888 » Wed, May 28, 2025, 12:58 PM UTC

actionfromafar wrote: post #43

octo888 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same could come to Europe (lowballing broke people), because you can just make employees give their consent by baking it into all employment contracts. Just like the working time directive opt-out (HR say "take it or leave it" to 99.9% of people). It probably already happens where it's already acceptable to request financial checks such as the finance industry.

You could try, but that would most likely be illegal and also fought tooth and nail by unions, which aren't as neutered as American unions. In Europe, sympathy strikes aren't Verboten like in the US.

Many countries in Europe have weak unions (eg Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Portugal, Czech Republic, Greece).

And there is no real EU (did you mean EU by "Europe"?) wide labour law

Re: Cory Doctorow on how we lost the internet

#110

Post by croes » Wed, May 28, 2025, 2:00 PM UTC

octo888 wrote: post #108

fsflover wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Putting it in the contract is giving your permission. You're allowed to give your permission under GDPR. AFAIK the company must make it opt-in, non-mandatory and provide a way to change your mind at any moment.

Yes, as I said, by putting it in the employment contract when applying for a job. Honestly it's hilarious how some people view GDPR. They think CEOs lose sleep at night worrying about it, that they might go to jail for it, or have to pay 100M Euro fine for a breach of it. It's simply not the case. The reality of EU directives and regulations are very different to how they are sold. Many people fall prey to the market…

There are many much older privacy laws then just GDPR.