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Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

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Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#101
post #18
post #6

sounds like centralising most of the the internet behind a single easy target (Cloudflare) is a bad idea

All systems seem to converge to these monopolies. Google, X, Facebook, Cloudflare. All minor player are absorbed or eliminated.

I agree that oligopolies are more stable than polyopolies, but a huge part of why the internet collapsed in a handful of companies is how stock markets and venture capital love monopolies.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#102
post #77
post #41

Of course it could claim lives. Hopefully Prince has considered people have also likely died as a result of Cloudflare's repeating captcha which holds the next page in front of you like a carrot on a stick, never letting you know that you will be clicking that box forever. I'm sure while someone's in the process of keeling over is the perfect time to arbitrarily scrutinize their connecting details. You need to contac…

As someone who implemented cloudflare because of a massive DDOS and bot problem, sorry, but I will cheerfully allow 1% of my visitors to find the site unusable rather than 100%. It sucks, but no sane business would be so invested in equality of experience that they’d allow it to be completely broken for everyone.

Thank you for honesty on this.

The choice isn't necessarily between 99% and 0% of legitimate users/visitors getting through.

What if you, and every other customer of Cloudflare or its competitors, applied pressure to make that 100% of legitimate users/visitors getting through?

What if legislators also mandated that 100% for many sites?

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#103
post #6

sounds like centralising most of the the internet behind a single easy target (Cloudflare) is a bad idea

I don't entirely disagree, but at the same time, La Liga shouldn't have this much power to shut down large swaths of the internet because of a handful of piracy sites, that probably only have a minimal impact on their income anyway.

Also, CDNs have inherent economies of scale and network effects, so it is natural that there would be just a few at the top.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#104
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Brazil it is not uncommon for fans to organize protests, sometimes violent, when a club starts performing poorly due to perceived slack on the players. At the same time, seemingly more pressing political issues often go unnoticed. It's beyond me how some people get more riled up by the sport, not being a sports person myself.

It's designed for this purpose. Rome was organizing those games to thrill the romans, it worked splendid. When political concerns gets on the rise, you pump the show. It works better than your typical propaganda as players become heroes, managers and clubs make great money. Distributors get their cut. The machine is well oiled with solid monetary incentives. Football (and other sports watching): cheap but deep rooted…

Look at it the other way -- absent sports fanaticism, people with these personality traits would be involved in politics.

I'd categorically say that focusing that sort of person on sports is by far the lesser of the two evils.

Democracy only chooses as wisely as the average intelligence of its voters.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#105
post #12
post #5

I live in Spain, while I find the whole "life-threatening" narrative a tad overblown: I agree these obnoxious blocks are unacceptable. Incredible how much power LaLiga is capable of wielding.

[flagged]

The fact that it's stupid doesn't make it untrue.

Under-resourced public sector entities often reach for the easiest solutions: Facebook and Twitter.

Consequently, those channels are a major portion of their disaster communication plans.

If services don't want to assume the responsibilities of being critical utilities, then they shouldn't work so hard to establish monopolies.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#106
post #99
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I've tried to get a customer of CloudFlare to fix a consistent block of their site -- not safety-critical, but mission-critical, and costing them a SaaS sale -- nobody seemed to care. My impression is that everyone knows that Cloudflare is blocking some legitimate people, but nobody -- neither the customer, nor Cloudflare -- cares enough to solve that problem. It's similar to why Google doesn't have much tech su…

Do you ever find that advocating for these tenets feels "weird" nowadays? As in, don't you know these publicly traded companies are legally bound to extract profit without these silly notions of empathy or trust? What do you expect them to do? To start acting silly?

I know that some corporations behave like they are jerks who are full of poo.

And some percentage of the rest will act like jerks once it's to their advantage.

But society still holds corporations to account on some societal values.

Mostly through legislation. But sometimes through consumers (and B2B) voting with their pocketbooks.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#107
post #102
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who implemented cloudflare because of a massive DDOS and bot problem, sorry, but I will cheerfully allow 1% of my visitors to find the site unusable rather than 100%. It sucks, but no sane business would be so invested in equality of experience that they’d allow it to be completely broken for everyone.

Thank you for honesty on this. The choice isn't necessarily between 99% and 0% of legitimate users/visitors getting through. What if you, and every other customer of Cloudflare or its competitors, applied pressure to make that 100% of legitimate users/visitors getting through? What if legislators also mandated that 100% for many sites?

Mandating 100% availability sounds like regulating pi to 3.0.

It can’t be done. If someone is on a home network whose router has been compromised and is part of a ddos attack, there’s no way their innocent HTTP traffic is getting through. Ditto if their machine has been compromised. Lots of scenarios where an innocent user must be blocked, unless the entire internet is reinvented. Which is beyond the scope of my project.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#108
post #53
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly including on my site that kept getting overwhelmed by bots this year. I didn’t know what else to do.

Have you tried anubis? https://github.com/TecharoHQ/anubis

Anubis is affective against certain kinds of bots and abuse, but wouldn't be that affective against large scale DDoS attacks. And it does have a negative impact on usability, as users have to wait for the browser to do the proof of work, which may or may not be worse than cloudflare's captchas.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#109
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for honesty on this. The choice isn't necessarily between 99% and 0% of legitimate users/visitors getting through. What if you, and every other customer of Cloudflare or its competitors, applied pressure to make that 100% of legitimate users/visitors getting through? What if legislators also mandated that 100% for many sites?

Mandating 100% availability sounds like regulating pi to 3.0. It can’t be done. If someone is on a home network whose router has been compromised and is part of a ddos attack, there’s no way their innocent HTTP traffic is getting through. Ditto if their machine has been compromised. Lots of scenarios where an innocent user must be blocked, unless the entire internet is reinvented. Which is beyond the scope of my proj…

> It can’t be done. If someone is on a home network whose router has been compromised and is part of a ddos attack, there’s no way their innocent HTTP traffic is getting through. Ditto if their machine has been compromised.

To me, this sounds like giving up way too easily on engineering problems.

One distinction to start with: Let's say grandma's router isn't part of a DDoS attack. Even if she might be trying to talk with a site that someone is trying to attack.

After solving that one, maybe the solution also somehow solves the problem of when grandma's router is involved in DDoS (or that site? of a different one?), or maybe we have to think harder.

Re: Cloudflare CEO: Football piracy blocks will claim lives

#110

I was unaware of this controversy so in brief: 1. La Liga (Spanish Football) finds pirates streaming their games objectionable 2. They notice that many of these streamers use Cloudflare for something, presumably CDN and load balancing. 3. They appear in court in Spain and get an ex-parte TRO blocking all Cloudflare IPs. (Ex parte TRO: restraining order granted without Cloudflare being summoned to court) 4. Based on t…

> Cloudflare goes public in frustration, noting that they could just send take down requests for infringing content like every other rights holder in the world, Live sports piracy has the unusual property that you have to be able to get the block in place within the ~90 minutes of a football match, even at weekends and across time zones. Otherwise there’s no point. If the courts let Cloudflare slow roll this, at the…

How are streaming sites registering new domains and getting the site info out to the audience in that time frame? I suspect they're not and there's actually a period there's a window of weeks or longer for enforcement actions to be taken.
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