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Perverse incentives of vibe coding

fredbenenson.medium.com

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Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#101

Post by csallen »

dingnuts wrote: post #17
vanschelven wrote: post #14

> Its “almost there” quality — the feeling we’re just one prompt away from the perfect solution — is what makes it so addicting. Vibe coding operates on the principle of variable-ratio reinforcement, a powerful form of operant conditioning where rewards come unpredictably. Unlike fixed rewards, this intermittent success pattern (“the code works! it’s brilliant! it just broke! wtf!”), triggers stronger dopamine respon…

it's not like gambling, it is gambling. you exchange dollars for chips (tokens -- some casinos even call the chips tokens) and insert it into the machine in exchange for the chance of a prize. if it doesn't work the first time you pull the lever, it might the second time, and it might not. Either way, the house wins. It should be regulated as gambling, because it is. There's no metaphor, the only difference from a sl…

Books are not like gambling, they are gambling. you exchange dollars for chips (money — some libraries even give you digital credits for "tokens") and spend them on a book in exchange for the chance of getting something good out of it.

If you don't get something good the first time you buy a book, you might with the next book, or you might not. Either way, the house wins.

It should be regulated as gambling, because it is. There's no metaphor — the only difference from a slot machine is that books will never output cash directly, only the possibility of an insight or idea that could make money. So if you're lucky with your first gamble, you'll want to try another.

Gambling all the way down.

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#102

Post by slurpyb »

brooke2k wrote: post #98

I don't understand the productivity that people get out of these AI tools. I've tried it and I just can't get anything remotely worthwhile unless it's something very simple or something completely new being built from the ground up. Like sure, I can ask claude to give me the barebones of a web service that does some simple task. Or a webpage with some information on it. But any time I've tried to get AI services to h…

You are not alone! I strongly agree and I feel like I am losing my mind reading some of the comments people have about these services.

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#104

Post by andy99 »

techpineapple wrote: post #81
andy99 wrote: post #29

I wish more had been written about the first assertion that using an LLM to code is like gambling and you're always hoping that just one more prompt will get you what you want. It really captures how little control one has over the process, while simultaneously having the illusion of control. I don't really believe that code is being made verbose to make more profits. There's probably some element of model providers…

Something I caught about Andrej Karpathy’s original tweet, was he said “give into the vibes”, and I wonder if he meant that about outcomes too.

I still think the original tweet was tongue-in-cheek and not really meant to be a serious description of how to do things.

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#105

Post by tippytippytango »

martin-t wrote: post #40
tippytippytango wrote: post #7

This article captures a lot of the problem. It’s often frustrating how it tries to work around really simple issues with complex workarounds that don’t work at all. I tell it the secret simple thing it’s missing and it gets it. It always makes me think, god help the vibe coders that can’t read code. I actually feel bad for them.

> I tell it the secret simple thing it’s missing and it gets it. Anthropomorphizing LLMs is not helpful. It doesn't get anything, you just gave it new tokens, ones which are more closely correlated with the correct answer. It also generates responses similar to what a human would say in the same situation. Note i first wrote "it also mimicks what a human would say", then I realized I am anthropomorphizing a statistic…

Patronizing much?

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#106

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

cogman10 wrote: post #92
0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I ask an artist to draw a picture, I still have to pay for the service, even if I am unhappy without the result.

In the US? No, you actually do not need to pay for the service if you deem the quality of the output to be substandard. In particular with art, it's pretty standard to put in a non-refundable downpayment with the final payment due on delivery. You only lose those rights in the contracts you sign (which, in terms of GPT, you've likely clicked through a T&C which waves all right to dispute or reclaim payment). If you a…

There must be artists working on an hourly contract rate.

Maybe art is special, but there are other professions where someone can invest heaps of time and effort without delivering the expected result. A trial attorney, treasure hunter, oil prospector, app developer. All require payment for hours of service, regardless of outcome.

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#107

Post by slurpyb »

ramoz wrote: post #96

I disagree with the idea that LLM providers are deliberately designing solutions to consume more tokens. We're in the early days of agentic coding, and the landscape is intensely competitive. Providers are focused on building highly capable systems to drive adoption, especially with open-source alternatives just a git clone away. Yes, Claude Code can be token-heavy, but that's often a trade-off for their current leve…

It’s so cool that we’re all actively participating in the handover of all our work to these massive companies so we can be forever reliant on their blackbox subscriptions. Don’t fret; there will be a day where those profit numbers will have to go up and they will consciously make the product worse, just to trigger more queries, and thus extract more money from you. Gross.

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#109

Post by slurpyb »

abletonlive wrote: post #77
dingnuts wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not like gambling, it is gambling. you exchange dollars for chips (tokens -- some casinos even call the chips tokens) and insert it into the machine in exchange for the chance of a prize. if it doesn't work the first time you pull the lever, it might the second time, and it might not. Either way, the house wins. It should be regulated as gambling, because it is. There's no metaphor, the only difference from a sl…

Yikes. The reactionary reach for more regulation from a certain group is just so tiresome. This is the real mind virus that I wish would be contained in Europe. I almost can't believe this idea is being seriously considered by anybody. By that logic buying any CPU is gambling because it's not deterministic how far you can overclock it. Just so you know, not every llm use case requires paying for tokens. You can even…

Do you understand what electricity is?

Re: Perverse incentives of vibe coding

#110

Post by codr7 »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #53
codr7 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you can get your drugs for free doesn't exactly make you less of an addict.

It does literally make it not gambling though, which is what's betting discussed. It also kind of breaks the whole argument that they're designed to be addictive in order to make you spend more on tokens.

As long as that argument makes you happy, go for it :)
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