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Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

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Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#101

Post by DemocracyFTW2 »

mousethatroared wrote: post #91
DemocracyFTW2 wrote: post #65

I must say I'm a little unhappy with how this thread has been usurped to be not about the writing on the obelisk but the appropriateness of it being in Paris. The latter is an important question with no easy answers but completely unrelated to the former.

But the article is about the crypto message. Yet it also mentions why the obelisk is in Paris: a gift from the, Muslim, Ottoman, ruler of Egypt to France.

Yes and the article also mentions the obelisk was surrounded by scaffolding in preparation for the Olympic games, so feel free to discuss scaffolding, Olympic games, restoration work on ancient monuments, Paris' role in Europe, the impact of modern sports events on urban environments, whatever. Doesn't change the fact the OP is literally about alleged hidden messages on an Egyptian obelisk that happens to be standing in Paris. Had the guy who brought this up been writing about an obelisk still standing in Egypt, how appropriate would it feel to change the subject of the discussion to, I don't know, the legitimacy of Egypt's present government or the fact that a not-so-small number of archaeological sites is being ruined by being part of military compounds? Not very appropriate I'd say.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#102

Post by rsynnott »

amitport wrote: post #96
rsynnott wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was kind of the opposite, AIUI; the Ottomans claimed that Muhammad Ali was just a regional governor, but the country was de facto independent; the Ottomans had no ability to control it.

How do you know? It was not free. The people certainly were not free.

> The people certainly were not free.

Oh, no, definitely not. I mean, it was the early 19th century; not _literally having slaves_ was considered a dangerously radical experiment that even revolutionary France could only half-commit to. Freedom wasn't a big thing in the early 19th century.

But Egypt under Muhammad Ali was about as independent as any country was at the time, really. It controlled its own domestic and foreign policy, had its own military, and _invaded its nominal suzerain_, taking Syria off the Ottomans.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#103

Post by navis05 »

teleforce wrote: post #92

>In broad terms, the messages seek to remind the elite that Ramses had been chosen by the gods and claimed his ancestry from Amun-Re and Maat. Ramses had come to the throne relatively late at the age of 25 years old following the death of his father Seti. Having not been born a king, Ramses used the obelisk as a propaganda tool early in his reign to reinforce his supremacy and divine nature. Fun facts, prophet Moses…

That’s really cool

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#104

Post by mousethatroared »

DemocracyFTW2 wrote: post #101
mousethatroared wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the article is about the crypto message. Yet it also mentions why the obelisk is in Paris: a gift from the, Muslim, Ottoman, ruler of Egypt to France.

Yes and the article also mentions the obelisk was surrounded by scaffolding in preparation for the Olympic games, so feel free to discuss scaffolding, Olympic games, restoration work on ancient monuments, Paris' role in Europe, the impact of modern sports events on urban environments, whatever. Doesn't change the fact the OP is literally about alleged hidden messages on an Egyptian obelisk that happens to be standing…

Oh, Im sorry I think I mis interpreted you.

You want to talk about the crypto, not why the pointy stick is in Paris. Then we're in agreement

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#105

Post by shakow »

krapp wrote: post #85
shakow wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whereas Antiquity Egyptians were well-known for being a well-behaving people, that never ever dared touch their neighbor's property? Didn't countless Pharaohs proudly inscribed in stone how many foes they killed, how many lands they conquered, how much riches they pillaged?

So you - and a lot of people judging from the comments - believe that it's perfectly legitimate to steal from someone who has ever, themselves, done anything in the past you consider wrong. That morality, ethics and laws should only protect the blameless, and everyone and everything else is fair game. I have to admit I don't agree, I personally think the morality of a crime doesn't depend upon a value judgement of th…

> believe that it's perfectly legitimate to steal from someone who has ever, themselves, done anything in the past you consider wrong.

That's not my point, no – if only because inter-personal relations are not and should not be handled like inter-state relations.

My point is that human history, especially in crucibles such as e.g. the Mediterranean is such a mess of victors turning to losers, conquerors to conquered, migrations, emigrations, remigrations, internal & external invasion, pillaging, destruction and so forth, that not only (i) the modern countries are all but representative of the people that inhabited them through History, (ii) so deeply intertwined, that trying to bring reparations is a lost cause from the very start.

Let us accept that the French should give back the obelisk: but then, to whom? To Turkey, the descendant country from the Ottoman Empire, who originally gifted it? To ethnic Mamluks, who controlled Egypt at the time as a client state of the Ottoman Empire? To Arabic people, ruled by Mamluks, who invaded Egypt before the Mamluks came into the picture? To Italian, Macedonians, or Greeks, that ruled over Egypt before that? Or should they launch some DNA sampling campaign to find what population in Norther Africa is the closest to the Ancient Egyptians, and bring back the Obelisk there?

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#106

Post by graemep »

teleforce wrote: post #92

>In broad terms, the messages seek to remind the elite that Ramses had been chosen by the gods and claimed his ancestry from Amun-Re and Maat. Ramses had come to the throne relatively late at the age of 25 years old following the death of his father Seti. Having not been born a king, Ramses used the obelisk as a propaganda tool early in his reign to reinforce his supremacy and divine nature. Fun facts, prophet Moses…

I did not know that, but its not really surprising when you think about it.

What the Quran says about Jesus and about Mary is also interesting.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#107

Post by sct202 »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #86
chasil wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a gift from the Ottoman Empire. That political entity no longer exists, and the people of Egypt would likely never have willingly parted with the many obelisks and other historical artifacts that have left their shores.

Maybe not, but: 1. You need to draw the line somewhere. It is simply not possible (nor even desirable) to redress all historical wrongs. It seems reasonable to not attempt to redress wrongs which are out of living memory for anyone involved. 2. As others pointed out, the people currently living in Egypt is not the same people who lived there when these things were built anyway, and there was a hell of a lot of conque…

The people currently living in Egypt are most definitely the same people that built these things. The Coptic Christians of Egypt liturgical language is a direct descendant of ancient Egyptian and the Muslims of Egypt are well documented to be descended from converted Copts.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#108

Post by mystified5016 »

anthk wrote: post #98
teleforce wrote: post #92

>In broad terms, the messages seek to remind the elite that Ramses had been chosen by the gods and claimed his ancestry from Amun-Re and Maat. Ramses had come to the throne relatively late at the age of 25 years old following the death of his father Seti. Having not been born a king, Ramses used the obelisk as a propaganda tool early in his reign to reinforce his supremacy and divine nature. Fun facts, prophet Moses…

[flagged]

Go back to 4chan with this drivel

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#109

Post by amitport »

jimjimjim wrote: post #81
amitport wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any case, it didn't belong to the Ottomans to give away. Getting it as gift from a conquering entity, does not make any of it better.

By that logic who does it belong to? How long does someone need to be in an area to be the "owner" of it. The people on Egypt currently weren't there when it was moved. Why should they get it? The people that were there when it was moved definitely weren't there 3000 years ago when it was made. Did they own it? In fact who owns anything in the world?

easy, never give away or sell ancient artifacts. Would you be fine with people conquering rome, and selling it all stone by stone? Would you be OK with some Italian dictator doing it?

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#110

Post by autoexec »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #88
autoexec wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in America is "pillaged" I guess and should be returned. Seems unrealistic.

Honestly, I would have more respect for people who do land acknowledgements if they tried to give the land back. I don't think they should (because I believe that we shouldn't attempt to fix the sins of those who are long since dead), but at least then they would be attempting to walk the walk. Right now it comes off very poorly because people go "this land belongs to the natives" and then happily continue to possess…

> I believe that we shouldn't attempt to fix the sins of those who are long since dead

I mean, we should try where it's possible and reasonable and the impact is ongoing. When a bunch of long dead people passed a law saying that women can't own property we were right to later correct that sin. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be trapped by the horrible choices of the dead. We just have to be careful about when and how we try to correct the wrongs of the past.

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